magpie patrick
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Posts posted by magpie patrick
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8 hours ago, David Mack said:
It has the boatmen's names for locks rather than the official company names, and there are some misspellings (Hitchington, Bugby), which would support this being something produced for the trainees.
There appears to be a lock called "Five Paddle", did it really have an extra one? (I suppose if one included gate paddles it might have one less than the others!)
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They key is intriguing, as it includes quite precise information relating to facilities, above, below etc - the fact of their existence would be useful, but such detail is for someone who needs to look for them, so not a typical working boat crew and not an office bod who needs general information. The lack of ownership, copyright etc suggests it wasn't intended for wide circulation
If it was drawn by Molly Trail she must have been a dab hand at drafting.
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Needs more than a bit of duck tape....
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11 hours ago, Tacet said:
A well made point about Hertford Lock.
Some (but not all) guides have the locks marked as "Old Ford" Locks but I'm not convinced about the name as there are (and were already when the Duckett's opened) another two Old Ford Locks in the locality, which is surely enough.
If they are called Old Ford Locks you could go through five "Old Ford Locks" in succession.
I assume "Old Ford" is an area, normally lock names are very local so it's unusual to get two locks over a mile apart with the same name.
Going back to the original topic, the poor owner may have got their boat back but I guess they'll have to start again on the interior - carpets *might* dry out but i guess anything electrical will be a write-off
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I was talking about the Tennant Canal at a meeting in Neath the other day and someone advised me that Red Jacket Pill had in the past been known as "Trowman's Hole", presumably somewhere where a trow could be laid up
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27 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:
its still a false economy though and I thought they were now able to budget several years ahead
Yes, but they don't have any more money to budget with do they? I know my income for years ahead but I still buy old cars - knowing how much I have doesn't give me any more, it just lets me plan a bit better (will this car last until the next time I can afford one, knowing when "next time" is)
Yes, they could spend more on steel gates, but what do they not do? Or lets be more blunt, what should they not do that you wouldn't whinge about.
They do in fact budget several years ahead on gates - they know what gates will be replaced over the next four years assuming nothing fails in that time, if it does, it jumps the queue.
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We are considering the same and I have friends who've done this for years.
Pros - you get four weeks a year for a fraction of the cost of your own boat and quite a discount on hiring.
Cons - most are professionally maintained and many are professionally managed, so less scope for cost control by, say, servicing the engine yourself (against that you're only paying a twelfth of the cost)
You can't decide that this year you'd like a six week long mega cruise
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3 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:
On the other hand, it appears that drivers who enter restricted areas such as bus lanes to allow an ambulance or fire engine to pass, have been fined.
This is partly the result of automated enforcement. A police officer seeing you move into a bus lane to let an ambulance with blue lights on go past is unlikely to book you. The camera does catch you and now it's your job to justify your actions. Automated enforcement has many benefits but it does take reason out of the equation.
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3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:
From when I last saw it, probably 10 years ago it just looked like the miller had closed the door and walked away. Miss James was the custodian but not the owner
It looks pretty much the same now except for 10 years more dust!
2 hours ago, Tam & Di said:There is also of course the Moulin Rouge, commemorating the sad fate of a miller who got caught up in the machinery, and whose blood therefore turned the flour red.
Well that's ruined the can-can as a spectacle!
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2 hours ago, Pluto said:
Fairbairn, Mills and Millwork, two vols. You should be able to download from Google, or Internet Archive. Just a quick look will tell you that it is a pretty extensive subject. I have a number of pdfs of books I have copied - probably most are now available to download - but can send you a selection by wetransfer.
I've now found those thank you - they will either keep me occupied for quite a while or be so far over my head that I need something simpler before tackling them!
3 hours ago, magnetman said:One minor detail which I liked but is probably normal with these sorts of things is that the teeth of the large cast iron gear transferring power from the waterwheel were made of wood. Apple I think it was.
In Narrow Boat Rolt makes reference to the miller in Church Minshull using apple wood for the gear teeth, the miller has a supply handy to make replacement teeth when needed
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Earlier this week I was invited to look around Baylham Mill on the Gipping - disused for decades but never converted to any other use. This has given me an appetite to know more about water mills, both history and processes. I know the basics but lack details. Can anyone recommend a good book or three?
No pics inside as it was too dark (no lights) and anyway it's private, but a view of the outside for your delectation.
the big arch is for the navigation, the small one is for the exit leat from the mill.
I did get a picture of a vintage fire extinguisher which may interest some of you - I wouldn't fancy putting out a mill fire with it!
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2 minutes ago, SGBATCH1.5 said:
Somebody says I can get down the krinnon canal is this true
You can use the Crinan Canal but it won't help much! It runs east-west across the Mull of Kintyre so has sea at both ends of its 9 mile length
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Alvechurch is on the Birmingham level, so doing the Black Country Ring from there doesn't involve doing any more locks than starting on the ring itself. Go straight to central Birmingham and either go down Farmers Bridge Locks or follow the main line to Wolverhampton
Edited to add - mooring in Central Birmingham is okay albeit sometimes a bit noisy if you're in Gas Street Basin.
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20 minutes ago, passing through said:
What’s wrong with wanting a separate place to eat?
You can have a separate dining area without it being a dinette - the term usually applies to fixed seating and table, often with the table dropping between the seats to form a bed. Free standing furniture is an option.
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- Popular Post
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I'm not usually moved by celebrity death, not that I'm callous but I don't actually know them, they've often reached a great age, their art lives on and death comes to us all, BUT Tim West was a great actor and narrator, and in Great Canal Journeys his compassionate handling of Pru's dementia was heart warming and a real example of deep love, an example to anyone in a relationship when the cruel cards of old age are being played.
Via the TV screen they have taken me to canals abroad that I shall almost certainly never see for myself. The repeats will seem different and a little empty knowing he is no longer with us. RIP Tim West, and I trust someone will look after Pru for you.
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3 hours ago, Lady M said:
I don't think the planning application mentioned any need to replace.
It would be listed building consent and that would need a justification for the works.
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On 09/11/2024 at 09:45, Lady M said:
Well they could just have assumed that the steel gates were there. With CRT being short of money, it makes no sense to me that they are replacing the steel gates with wood which will not last as long.
But the steel gates will be around twice the price and the wooden ones will last 25 years, so given present budget constraints it makes sense to use wood, assuming of course the gates need replacing.
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This is where it could get even messier
TWT took over the Rochdale Canal (I assume this means they bought the RCC)
TWT gave BW a contract to manage and maintain the Rochdale Canal
TWT merged with BW when CRT was formed....
How does it work when CRT have a contract with themselves!
None of this voids the arguments over grant contract duration btw
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I would have to look at the funding contract - however I think there is a lot of confusion above about what a charge entails, and whether a funding contract is one.
The typical wording is along the lines of "and shall be maintained for the approved purposes for a period of thirty years...." to not maintain the scheme for the approved purposes is a breach of contract.
BW tried to stop trips at Standedge and got pulled up on this one.
I don't know whether breach of grant contract would show up as a charge the way that these other items do - I suspect it wouldn't. I also suspect the managers of many grant aided schemes (not just canal ones) 20plus years after the event, are blissfully unaware of these condition until they get bitten by them.
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1 hour ago, David Mack said:
I find it hard to believe that the assets of the Rochdale Canal Company were worth as little as that in the late 1990s. The area occupied by the canal is a huge amount of land, much of it in urban areas, which in other circumstances could have been built on. That would surely have realised a sum orders of magnitude bigger than half a million quid.
I don't know what was purchased but it's a fair bet that Town Centre Securities (who owned the Rochdale Canal pre-restoration) transferred any obviously profitable sites to another entity before selling the canal.
For the canal itself the physical restrictions, diversion of the water supply/drainage function and the planning policies on place to protect it by the late 1990s would make it almost impossible to develop it.
If it were now, the owners would struggle to give it away.
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12 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:
I think what I said before is that the £537,090 was used to buy the assets (i.e. stock) of the Rochdale Canal Company. The Rochdale Canal became to property of The Waterways Trust. The Waterways Trust later became the property of Canal and River Trust.
Here is a link (use the "charges" check box to limit the search and look at the first and last document -
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03728156/filing-history
Thanks Allan, you have confirmed what I suspected
Where that leaves the rest of the grant I don't know - and no I don't have my own copy of the project file!
1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:If the 'maintenance' part was over a period (say 20 years). Would the agreed amount not be depreciated, in the accounts, over the period ?
To elaborate more on why this isn't "how tis done"
Bear in mind thgat to get approval for the capital grant the applicant has to have a plan as to how maintenance will be undertaken.
Let us suppose that a grant of £10 million was approved to restore canal and that it had to be maintained in a navigable condition for 30 years. On year 29 it closes and investigation finds that the owners have no intention of trying to reopen it, arguing "we almost made it".
If this was because of a technical failure way beyond their control (perhaps canal washed away in extreme floods) and enormously expensive to fix on an otherwise well maintained canal the breach of contract would have occurred in year 29 due to circumstances beyond their control, still a breach, still a clawback but not a very big one.
Now suppose the same owner had done no maintenance at all in the hopes the capital works would last 30 years but, not surprisingly all the gates are rotten and none of the locks work anymore, the canal is silted and one season of non-use has led to widespread reed growth blocking the channel. Although the breach of contract regarding navigation started in year 29 the failure of maintenance started many years earlier. Could be a massive clawback with interest.
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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:
Were you actually involved in the negotiation and awarding of the Rochdale Millenium grant ?
No, only in monitoring it's delivery which would mean I had to be fully aware of the conditions
1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:If the 'maintenance' part was over a period (say 20 years). Would the agreed amount not be depreciated, in the accounts, over the period ?
That's not how it works - there is no agreed repayments (too big a risk of it seeming "worth it" to breach the contract). To fail to see out the maintenance period would be a breach of contract that would invite clawback of the grant. The clawback clause is potentially the entire grant with interest, the amount would be determined by negotiation, arbitration or the courts and would depend on the circumstances.
4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:Maybe the £500,000 shown in the 2021 accounts was simply the balance left to be 'closed off' in the 2021 accounts, leaving a balance of zero.
It's the reference to "ordinary stock" that intrigues me, that's not a grant as such. It sounds like a reference to purchasing the Rochdale Canal Company or similar (which would be "ordinary stock") but I don't know that this is what happened. Certainly the canal had to be purchased by the Waterways Trust, although I don't know whether they bough the company to achieve this.
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1 hour ago, IanD said:
And the other longer-term grants, from councils and the EU? IIRC these had terms of 60 years, at least according to a poster involved in the negotiations -- maybe you should challenge him? 😉
I think I am that other poster, so to clarify, all grants for works have terms not only for spending the money, but for maintaining the asset on which it has been spent. The first means, for example, that the Rochdale Canal restoration had to be completed in accordance with the approved purposes, otherwise the money would need to be handed back, the second means that on completion it has to be maintained "according to the approved purposes" for a period of time. I do not recall what this period was for the Rochdale but I have never known the maintenance period to be less than 30 years and on the HLF funded section of the Cotswolds it is 80 years. Other grant bodies have their own approved purposes and periods over which the works must be maintained
1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:As was pointed out the last time this was discussed, the Rochdale Grant is now 'closed / voided / satisfied' as it has reached its closure date.
It no longer appears in the accounts as a liability or charge.
The facts are recorded at Companies house as below :
I would have to check what that charge of securities is for; the short particulars suggest it wasn't for an £11.5 million pound grant, not just because of the amount but because of the reference to "ordinary stock" - a grant is not "ordinary stock". The canal was in private ownership before restoration (Technically the Rochdale Canal Company, who were in turn owned by City Centre Securities) so it may be that.
The Millenium Commission was dissolved in 2006 and it's assets and liabilities were transferred to the Big Lottery Fund, which is now normally known by the name National Lottery Community Fund
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9 minutes ago, jonesthenuke said:
It's bad enough having made them Grade 2 listed. Change the gates to steel and save money (I will hide for a while now!)
Marple locks are caving in one every couple of years at £2-3 million a pop - steel gates is small change.
Getting onto the roof - how?
in New to Boating?
Posted
Personally I would not get on the side deck of a boat in a lock, if the boat rocks towards the lock wall you may get very badly injured.