[Propulsion Power]

I am suprised at the lack of discussion, in regard to electric boat propulsion, of torque and propellor design, not size or pitch but efficient design.

 

I have always been sceptical of the Lynch motor concept and those belt driven copies, purely on the low torque numbers given. It seems they are designed to spin fast like existing props, allowing for lots of slip to achieve forward motion. What's with the tiny shaft diameters too? It goes against everything I ever learned at marine eng school.

 

To be fair, my experience goes to direct shaft drive, on large marine ship instalations, some with variable controlled pitch propellor systems, some with specific propellor designs BUT, in any boat, the highest power / torque would be used to either intiate forward motion or to arrest it. Normal cruising at a fixed speed, allowing for supplimental momentum  results is a great drop in amps to the motor and thus greater overall longevity of the battery capacity. Some "boats" I have experience of can move 20,000 tons at 5 RPM at 4 knots for a month at a time, in a seaway.

 

I would point my real world finger at the propeller as the culprit.  In the "real" marine world, there has been a huge investment in low rev, high thrust models, giving (near ) low cavitation in a submerged environment. Those VLBC / VLCC you often see running unloaded and high in the water with the prop 2/3rds submerged are wasting SO MUCH energy!! Also canal boats rely on traditional calculations with an ICE, measured in litres of diesel a day and accepting high slipage in a design dating back 100 years. In the new age of conserving energy in a non ICE environment there needs to be , IMHO, a new design philosophy in this area. In the same way that outboards were improved when it became viable to race them and so they got huge prop R&D investment and actually use cavitation as an additon to thrust. NOT suitable for canals and rivers, before you all start shouting at me. 

 

So can we have a shaft drive, high torque EM, with a prop specifically designed for its ability to operate at lower shaft speeds ( iE Crawl ) to provide low amp forward thrust, suitable for 2 - 5 mph, using suplimental momentum of a 17.5 tonne object and also being capable of operating against a current on river excusions? I doubt a CPP system would be anything like affordable in this market but I live in hope because if I can do it in Lego then surely it's possible in the real world? Again in the real world, unlikely when prop manufacturers in this market seem to be low quality sand pattern casters who then just polish to finish, when what is needed is a billet CNC machined thing of beauty.  Yes, I accept the expense but when people buy those nice new yellow sprayed engine sets and fit those lovely blue electrical boxes in their boats, higher expense is already accepted. Don't get me started on the robbery that are hybrid engines.

 

FYI - I have lived outside the UK in the Far East for nearly 20 years and will return to the UK shortly because of the local political situation and to build two 57s. I am shocked and stunned at the rise in prices in the UK that are now accepted for "stuff", as I have always been a cheapskate, but times change and technology too.

[Whats the latest? Macerator Toilets for pump out system]

Thanks all for this great info. Now only need to find 4 reasonably price toilets.  The Albin / Jabsco hand pump items are nice prices but make it electric and .. ouch. 

Spose I will have to bite the bullet because I can't see our clients enjoying the pumping to flush experience. 

[Whats the latest? Macerator Toilets for pump out system]

As I have no practical experience of the simple sysytem and it sounds REAL simple BUT, has anyone a link to a schematic and what fitting are needed?

Does it work with one of those toilets with the hand pump flush on the side ( which you can get as electric these days.  Found the answer

Do you start the tank off with a disenfectant (blu ) inside at every empty cycle?

 

Thanks

[Whats the latest? Macerator Toilets for pump out system]

Thanks for your thoughts but the design is decided . NOT hire boats and will work together as part of a unique project using the waterways.. The design is contemprary on a basic traditional lower hull. 

Therefore not looking for peoples preferences, just sourcing intel.

 

Thanks

[Whats the latest? Macerator Toilets for pump out system]

It seems if you spend a day looking at toilets for a pump out system you have to spend some serious spondoolicks on that product. 

I saw one on Midland Chandlery for nearly 900 quid !  No thanks. Oh and a 240 v self pump system on another site (ASAP I think) for nearly 800. Jesus H. For a little pump and a hose?  Nope.

Sorry, but been out of UK for nearly 20 years. Prices are definately hairy scary.

 

So as we have to buy four (4) toilets for the upcoming two boat project and I am asking for feedback as to:

a) The best value outlet  for either toilets  or just about everything, so I dont have to numb my brain searching Google any more.

b) Macerator or Vacuum or another, is the best system for pump out. I like Macerator and was wondering why you cant put an normal B&Q cloakroom bog with one of those add on macerator kits?   Must suff be "Marinised" for this?  Yes, with seawater flusking I could seen but on freshwater canals? 

c) I would imagine that having tanks tailor made in stainless would be more expensive that choosing a ready made plastic black water offereing. So the best value outlet for these are, who?

 

Thanks in advance

 

David

[Board Feet Insulation]

10 hours ago, Murflynn said:

 

as a "full trained long time served engineer" you will certainly be aware that you need to specify the way the amount of foam is to be measured.  For example is it the quantity of foam components you need to buy, or is it the final expanded volume of the foam? 

 

as a "full trained long time served engineer" you will already know the "formula" quoted by Ditchcrawler, so it rather begs the question why you can't do the sums for yourself.

 

as a "full trained long time served engineer" you will certainly be aware that elfinsafety practices require you to be "full trained" in the trade you intend to follow.  For all we know you may be an IT engineer, an aerospace engineer, a pharmaceutical engineer, or many other professions that have no connection with spray-foaming (which is of course a semi-skilled trade, not an engineering discipline).

 

hope this helps

 

Murflynn    BSc, MICE, CEng.

as a " fully trained long time served engineer " who doesn't see the need to suffix his professional quals on a canal boat forum but, if you insist,  BTec Cert and Dip Mechanical and Marine Eng (Distinction ), BSc, SSME, AMC, BWC, MQC, UWC, Charge ( Submarines),  Sub qual Pt 3 (Dolphins), Horse, JICE, SICE, ELBD (Qual), SSMEO (Tons), CinC Fleet Eng Specialist, CELTA.  Oh and I don't pay for those memberships of "professional" boards that give you those letters after your name in return for  a subscription ( just like a dodgy builder with guild "membership". )  I am enquiring of those with EXPERIENCE. and not relying solely of internet published figures.   Maybe it works differently in CIVIL Engineering but in my 50 years of marine engineering, EXPERIENCE trumps an algorithm / formula / calculation every time.  Thanks for your bitchy input to a valid enquiry.

[Board Feet Insulation]

11 hours ago, David Mack said:

There have been plenty of stories on here of sprayfoam jobs that have been too thin or missed areas, like under the gunwales or around battens.

..... and perhaps that is my reason to want to do it myself as the final arbiter of quality. Doesn't have to be pretty as it's covered anyway.

[Board Feet Insulation]

14 minutes ago, frangar said:

Have you not thought that its not just labour you are paying for...but the kit/skill/insurance/etc? If you are thinking of doing it yourself with a kit from eBay then I just you have all the required PPE...air fed mask...full cover overalls etc etc. There is actually quite a high risk to you if you get it wrong.

 

If you must save a few quid then look at doing it with kingspan panels or similar. 

I am a full trained long time served engineer.  I can rent the kit and aware of all the HSE stuff. Thanks .  Spray cleaned and blasted my fair share of ships tanks. I also understand a fair hourly rate so the prices I see just rub me up the wrong way considering the cost of materials and rental costs.

 

8 minutes ago, BEngo said:

If you are thinking of doing it with cans of foam, forget it.  Proper foam is sprayed on as a hot liquid ( heated and mix of two chemicals in the gun), then expands on the metal.  Can foam is pre mixed, designed to fill gaps, and hard to get to stick on vertical surfaces and near impossible overhead.

If you want to diy, use sheet Kingspan 50mm thick. Stick it on with gripfill or similar, or wedge it between stiffeners.   Al  foil tape the joints to maintain the vapour barrier.

 

N

 

Why would i do it the way you suggest? Don't think I ever implied that. Kingspan is an alternative for budget builds but it way behind in thermal efficiency and the risk of building in air and condensation pockets and thermal breaks is not something I need.

[Board Feet Insulation]

I just want to know in whatever way is understandable. How much foam do I need to spray a 57 trad.  

Someone must have done it here and there is no way I am paying 1700 to 2K for someone to come in for a couple of hours work.

[Board Feet Insulation]

Does anyone have the board feet number applicable to spray foam installation for a 57 Trad boat?

[Helmsman jobs]

Checking, yes of course. as a teacher here in HK we have the same thing.  

[Helmsman jobs]

Won't be 12 + 2 per boat. Total for the two boats would be 12 + 2 passengers.  Then additional 4 crew. 

Also, was already aware of the regs, thanks though. Ex RN living in HK and will return soon as we can get our ducks in a row and before the red menace intrudes into everyday life more than at present.

[Helmsman jobs]

I know that there are qualified  helmsmen that hire themselves to transfer boats but I am looking into hiring a couple of helmsmen to pilot a couple of 57 ft narrowboats around the northern canals on an educational project approx 6 - 9 months of the year inc school holidays. They would would effectively be boat managers responsible to the ( non travelling ) owner. The  "cargo" being school age children ( up to 12) and their 2 teachers ( who have discipline control over the children ) and would use the kids as crew teams.  Would suit a married / partnered couple and a maritime background might be an advantage, as the owner ( me! ), is an old salt getting too old for his own good.  Some idea of the cost to hire for  6 day working weeks paid as a monthly salary + bonus   would be very useful. Full accommodation and f&b provided gratis.

[12v or 24v]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A good plan, particularly as by 2025 all new build boats must be designed to be able to use zero emission power plants, and, 2035 no new boats will be allowed to be launched using non-zero emission engines, and from 2050 no boats using non-zero emission engines can be used in UK waters (Inland or coastal)

 

The Government 'Clean Maritime Pan 2050"

 

By 2025 we expect that:

i. All vessels operating in UK waters are maximising the use of energy efficiency options. All new vessels being ordered for use in UK waters are being designed with zero emission propulsion capability. Zero emission commercial vessels are in operation in UK waters.

ii. The UK is building clean maritime clusters focused on innovation and infrastructure associated with zero emission propulsion technologies, including bunkering of low or zero emission fuel.

 

By 2035 we expect that:

iii. The UK has built a number of clean maritime clusters. These combine infrastructure and innovation for the use of zero emission propulsion technologies. Low or zero emission marine fuel bunkering options are readily available across the UK.

iv. The UK Ship Register is known as a global leader in clean shipping and the UK is home to a world-leading zero emissions maritime sector, with:

a. a strong UK export industry

b. cutting-edge research and development activities

c. the global centre for investment, insurance and legal services related to clean maritime growth.

 

By 2050 we expect that :

Zero emission ships are commonplace globally. The UK has taken a proactive role in driving the transition to zero emission shipping in UK waters and is seen globally as a role model in this field, moving faster than other countries and faster than international standards. As a result, the UK has successfully captured a significant share of the economic, environmental and health benefits associated with this transition.”

Just to be clear, this is NOT legislation. It is just a plan. The use of the word "capability" " designed with"  "we expect that" etc etc  is fodder for the lobbyists and I would expect, much like diesel transport legislation to be published with hardly a likeness to the "plan".

 

FYI - Car makers make emission poison SUVs by buying emission credits from the likes of Tesla who put it on their balance sheet as income.  In this way they can meet the emission requirements of the countries they sell in.  All thanks to lobbyist scamming the system.

[12v or 24v]

42 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I’m sure Rick will answer for himself but my guess would be ‘because it’s a 48V boat’. Everything runs from his traction batts - that’s his storage system. So when it requires topping up for a couple of hours then the genny can do so, and a lot faster than could be achieved from 230V. You don’t see many 5kW 48V chargers around. 

 

Well, I looked at his spec and he has two Victrons which if they are 3000va  I image might be inverter chargers.  Might even be Multiplus's.  Again, I would enjoy to get his understanding because, when you use leisure batteries they do not take kindly to ( for example ) 20 minutes  every day of high load discharge as might happen to a large immersion heater.  Then again for an oven for a couple of hours etc etc,  Now I am talking of a 230v AC conversion as he quotes and not dc specific devices although I imagine the discharge problem is similar.

[12v or 24v]

On 10/07/2020 at 01:36, Rick-n-Jo said:

14 years and still going, but then it is a 48V 24 cell traction bank. 2 x 3000va Victron inverters, on 24/7. All domestic 230V equipment apart from pumps and some led lights and fans.

 

But......

5Kw 48V dc diesel gen to keep it all going when not on shore power. Runs for a couple of hours every day or two depending on usage. System not very tolerant of neglect, so would not recommend if not live aboard. If you want to have all the functionallity of a house afloat, this is the sort of (expensive) kit required. For just camping aboard, go low voltage + small inverter and expect to wear out leisure batteries every few years.

What you have is basically the same plan for our upcoming Hotel Boat  build, in part because would like an option of all electric propulsion down the line,  BUT ...............  why a DC generator and not AC?  In my plan I would use the Generator for large loads like water heating and kitchen and all this on an auto start load sensing system.  My experience of DC generators is they can be a pain after a while because of brush and commutator earth issues.  Thoughts?

[School Child ( Secondary ) Education]

9 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

This looks like a good idea. Do I surmise correctly? A floating finishing school and a massive field trip? 

Are finishing schools still a thing?

[School Child ( Secondary ) Education]

6 hours ago, Jerra said:

I am not, repeat not referring to the OP.   I am sure he is fully capable of home schooling.

 

This is the problem with many today who comment on education not just home schooling.   They feel they know all about schools because they attended a school, once.

Even I as the OP, understand what you're saying and do agree to a certain extent ------- HOWEVER .................................................  Even though I am old and grey I do tend to have the mind of a young teacher with ideas and knowledge of modern practices, rather than traditional, stereotyped ones. 

One person, at home teaching all the subjects, is what most people think of home schooling.  They forget the Australians through the School of the Air have been working the modern system ( internet instead of wireless ) since the 50's.  My mum qualified, after the war, as a book keeper and shorthand typist through the postal correspondence courses offered by Pitman. These started in the 1900's. Modern home schooling is designed around a team of teachers producing online lessons and accredited to a school or an examination body like Excel. No longer a weird parent in a basement and a chalkboard.  Yes, child interaction may be a concern but todays kids find interactions in novel ways and looked upon as the AntiChrist by many parents. My own daughter uses Minecraft and Roblox to interact with friends. My own mum in the early 60's would preach that TV would fry my brain but you have found them as just part of a rooms furniture  in 99% of homes today. 

 

What I am saying is everything changes and people change with it. In two years  5G will be considered old hat and Elon Musks satellites will provide seamless mobile services with NO POOR SERVICE, anywhere on the planet.  His cars and solar arrays will provide enhanced ground station nodes and kids will accept it as the norm and not Sci Fi.  COVID has made many see and be exposed ( in a good way ) to online possibilities and this is to the benefit of modern home schooling. Of course the government will finally cotton on around 2090.

 

[School Child ( Secondary ) Education]

5 hours ago, PD1964 said:

So are you going to be cruising the whole of the UK and wintering in different locations or cruising a specific area and winter in the same location. Or just a static hotel and language centre.
 Since you haven’t lived in the UK for 20 years things might be a bit more congested from when you remember the canal system all those years ago and the way things are going even more so in 2 years time.

We will have a home base as the rules for a boat based business require this.  My son and his wife and two kids still live in UK and we stay up to date.  I do understand doing the K&A in a wide-beam in the school hols is suicide mission. Those sorts of schedules are not in our plan.

5 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The LA is also, I think, required to provide sites for travellers -they don't do that either. These days, they are so short of funds that they are hard pushed to even collect the rubbish. And as they no longer control most of the secondary schools, choice is going to be very limited, and take a lot of time and effort to negotiate.

I think it was more the committee all fell out with each other, rather than a matter of funding. But their advice may still be useful.

If I can track them down then all well and good but they even shut the website down,

[School Child ( Secondary ) Education]

8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I don't know if you are aware  that both of the Hotel Boats operating London / K&A are both up for sale

 

I am sure there are good reasons for them being for sale, but it may be worth considering the facts when you come to do your business plan and look at the current market situation - there again buying one of them may allow you to get 'into the business' sooner and buy a going concern.

 

 

 

 As an experienced businessman until I retired / ran away after the 2008 crash. a business plan, many, many drafts long, has already been drawn up, dis-guarded and drawn up again. I know these two boats very well and Wessex has always been an intriguing model because to the inexperienced .... bing bing bong $ signs !!  However it comes at a heavy price in regard of man hours. dealing with 6 guests with just two crew and with one of them having to be exclusively below deck as a cook, maid and bottle washer. That can certainly lead to fatigue and " f*** the money, I want a life"

 

It's also an inflexible design. 5 Star or nothing. The standard of build is very high of course ( in both boats ) BUT ......................................

 

So my background is the Navy (Engineer) and proud Diesel Submariner. I am certainly used to the minimalist shipboard life style together with 16 years in HK, where we tend to live in small boxes and have multi use designs for living, as the norm. IKEA does MASSIVE business here!

 

I know that Wessex cost around 300K to put together. The original owner stated that in the TV program ( seen on YouTube!!) about the boat. I thought that extremely high at the time but I guess he must have used Harrods to fit out the boat.  I still think that the prices they want are optimistic in the present climate. I have expected with the loss of 2020 as a trading year for some to fall by the wayside but have to confess and be surprised Wessex is up for sale. Maybe the present owners are leveraged or more than likely the layoff has revealed to them the wonders of "having a real life."

 

Kailani only utilises just over half the people nights of Wessex for the same crew in the same areas for the same prices. it's published 2021 bookings are only running at 47% occupancy and want more than Wessex. NOT a good buy !!  Wessex wants you to see their turnover indicating 80% occupancy and it is a popular boat but their NET seems not to include their wages so ................  Even on those figures you have to calculate ( after taking  your own wage out ) a 5 year plan to recover the investment. If that's ok for you then fill your boots but a new build would do it in two.   Kailani is a design full of wasted profit space. A very traditional and boring layout. Going to be a difficult sale to anyone with a decent accountant.

 

We have a flexible plan - 1) It's a cash buy and our home. No financing, no leverage, no licensing.  Guests are calculated as extra income, not essential to survive. Thank the HK property market for allowing us complete financial security for the rest of our lives.  2) We can utilise our daughter as a steward as her school work allows ( paid of course ) OR / AND we priced in  a paid and accommodated extra staff member (for weekdays.)  Less profit yes but a better work life.  3) A contemporary hull design with unique features that " bring the outside ... in,"  without having to build a Wessex like roof platform. This is why we chose our builder who has built non trad before.  4) VERY flexible accommodation with each guest having the CHOICE of a double (King ) OR two singles BUILT IN and .. en-suite bathrooms ala Wessex.  Oh and it converts into your own private lounge. How do we do it? Magic and 16 years in HK designing furniture solutions as a hobby. 5) The double single allows us to carry  (up to ) 6 students for language learning / Art classes or other things we might dream up. inc walking holidays or city adventures with the boat as the base. We will be sluts for money and have a ready made market from Asia with families wanting to send kids to schools and uni. What better way to discover these than on your own private boat. Oh, we have over a 1000 enquirers so far just from HK as my wife has a massive book of social clients.  

 

So you might see from these highlights, we have thought it through. Even down to meal planning!

 

[School Child ( Secondary ) Education]

33 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The NBTA are worth contacting. They do get a lot of criticism on here (mostly due to their reputed lack of desire to actually travel), but a lot of their members are boat dwellers with kids and they should have some useful pointers.

As I understand it, a child has the right to schooling and a place in a school. Your problem may come at the other end, when you want to withdraw her from school for a while.  Legally you are entitled to be nomadic, but the system doesn't make it easy.

Thanks for this and yes I have seen the way that they are underfunded or not funded at all because I do believe that they had to shut down their committee in 19 because of no funds.

[School Child ( Secondary ) Education]

42 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

What area are you looking to cruise? As there are a lot of people having the idea of living on a boat and in 2 years things could of changed quite a bit, especially on the Southern parts.

  Looking at hotel boats you could be quite busy, moving, cooking meals, looking after guests, obviously this will be from April-Sept/Oct having this type of business based in your home may not leave enough time for home schooling.

Your model is the old way.and we have planned this quite carefully.

[School Child ( Secondary ) Education]

We will meet the terms of criteria b and I thank you for the info. We are building a hotel boat . 

 

Oh and language centre .

[School Child ( Secondary ) Education]

Thanks for both your comments and " True Dat."  

[School Child ( Secondary ) Education]

I agree with both of you, based upon what i am reading but I feel it's going to be a Royal Pain because of devolution to LA's and the lack of funding i.e. Non, towards teachers who travel.