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ivan&alice

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ivan&alice last won the day on June 22

ivan&alice had the most liked content!

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    Middlesex, UK

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    Software Developer
  • Boat Name
    Butterfly

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  1. "you seem to have an irrational dislike of anyone whose boating pattern is different from yours. " Where do you get that idea? Please quote one statement I have made... just one... that indicates that I dislike any other boater? In return I'll quote you ten from this thread alone of people who have negative things to say about CCers. I have no shoulder chip whatsoever. On the contrary, I'm just trying to understand and alleviate the conflict. I apologise if I have come off that way at all. It's not something I give much thought to, to be honest, but this thread here is specifically about CCing London, so perhaps staying on topic is why it seems that it matters more to me than it does. I have neither denied nor confirmed that I'm CMing, I have described my cruising pattern - I've ranged about 60 miles this year, and on average I'd say I move two out of three weekends. I'm happy to wear the CM badge if you think it applies, I'm more just trying to understand. I'm not worried about being chucked off the cut, I'm within CaRT's rules (for now...). Alright, I'm glad to hear that. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Oh wait... maybe not? I'm confused... I'm in agreement... just trying to understand the attitude, and give my point of view and perhaps some food for thought to help those with that attitude see it from another perspective. I think this is the sagest advice so far on this thread. Anyways, thanks for the discussion, I'm bowing out now, it has been interesting!
  2. Well said. Our boat is a long way from perfect. Sure I'd love to have a bright shiny beautifully restored boat. Hopefully I'll get there one day. We do our best, it's not beautiful but we are getting there slowly. So what do you propose to prevent this? Penalise all CCers across the entire network for the actions of a small percentage of boaters in London, a place none of you seem to want to visit anyway?
  3. I'm trying to keep it impersonal. I'm a liveaboard CCer who tends more to the side of CMer than marathon cruiser. Part of my point is that PMers and marathon CCers have a general, undirected dislike of "rat boats" and "bridge hoppers" and CCers in general, because "they don't cruise enough". I'm simply holding up my hand, saying "Hey, this is what a CCer looks like. What's your beef?" And people say "oh, not YOU, you cruise enough." so I ask, OK, it's substantially less than what some suggest as real CCing. What in your opinion makes my pattern OK and not others'? Where I'm getting at is this: you're all hunting the boogeyman. There is so much distaste for CCers but no one is actually willing to spell out exactly why or what they need to do to earn your approval. There are CCers who are in breach of the rules (at least 20 mile range, move to a new "place" at least every 2 weeks) and those people get dealt with by CaRT. Can the rest of us catch a break? A lot of it seems to come down to the state of the boat they are on. Which, to point out the obvious, has nothing to do with how far they cruise. It's almost like it's not OK to criticise dirty run down boats so we have to criticise CCers in general. I've only been on the cut for 10 months. So I'm ignorant of the history. But as a CCer I seem to have inherited a lot of ire that I feel is misplaced. As of now, London is crowded but fine. You can visit and there will be place for you if you aren't overly fussy about the exact spot you moor. You probably won't get broken into or mugged and most people keep their boats in reasonable condition (there are the 10-20% eyesores, of course).
  4. I'm happy with my pattern, as is CaRT, but it still generates a reasonable amount of discussion as to what is acceptable. That's why I'm trying to figure out how I can "improve" it in the eyes of PMers who would like to see the rules changed to outlaw my pattern. But thank you for your reassurance, I'll continue "doing me". My idea of a fair movement pattern is in line with my interpretation of CaRT's rules - move at least every two weeks, and range at least 20 miles over the course of the license.
  5. No. But I have no wish to influence them, I think the rules as they stand are just fine. As a CCer (alleged CMer), what I am trying to determine is what about my cruising pattern (and others like me) is so reprehensible to so many of you ( @Murflynn, @BWM, @Alan de Enfield and @Chris Williams at least). The reason I am trying to determine this is to try to find a way to be a more considerate boater, so that I can try to bridge the very obvious divide. The reason I pushed you for an answer on what would be an acceptable cruising distance is exactly for this. How far would you want us to be cruising to make CCers valid waterways users? Or what about my CC pattern do you think I should change? Sorry I am trying to figure out what the situation was. I intended it as a question, rather than an assumption - so he was a CCer. Perivale to Rickmansworth is just under 20 miles. I again must assume that he then turned around and went back 12 times over the course of the year. So he ranged less than the CaRT minimum which is why the license was restricted, is this correct? But since he moved very frequently, having his license restricted is not fair. I apologise if I am making incorrect assumptions here, I am just trying to determine why his behaviour is acceptable and other CCers' isn't.
  6. Not at all, in fact I think the rules as they stand are very effective at ensuring that moorings open up regularly, and I wouldn't want to see them changed. My pattern fits within the rules so I don't really need to worry about it. However what DOES bother me a lot is that that there is a gulf between CCers and PMers both on this forum and in real life. There is a definite difference between when I encounter another CCer (friendly, helpful, jovial) and a PMer (disgruntled, annoyed and dismissive). I don't see why it should be this way. PMers can't seem to accept that CCers like myself are valid waterway users, and I am trying to understand why and what I can do to try to bridge that gap. Interesting - I think this is an angle I hadn't considered before. PMers got "caught in the crossfire" when tackling CMers and now they have to abide by the mooring duration limitations, even though they (felt that they) weren't really the ones causing the problems? What if PMers weren't subject to the 1/7/14 day limitations? Or if their allowed mooring duration was doubled? Who is having their license restricted when travelling 30 miles a month? PMers? Is this because they do a 30 mile cruise and then want to stay longer than 14 days on a mooring? Thanks, I guessed as much. The big problem with this term in my view is that it encourages doing more locks. CRT guidelines elsewhere state that routes should be planned to minimise use of locks - for wear and water saving reasons. Are you sure, I think it may be you that is tying yourself in a knot! Earlier you said that you don't want to state what you think the minimum should be because people would turn around and say "that's not what the rules say". Then you said "follow what the rules say". Now you're saying "the rules are wrong and should be changed". I'm using "law" and "rules" and "CaRT's interpretation" thereof synonymously. This is not about the law to me, this is about how boaters should treat each other and what they should expect from each other. Codifying this in rules would help, but if you can show me that I'll be a more considerate boater for doing hundreds of lock miles a year instead of my say 100 or so, then I'll try to do more and go further. But no one has helped me understand at all how that follows. But you gave me an answer to my question of what the rules for CCers should be - 480 lock miles per year. That to me just says that you dislike CCers, they shouldn't be on the waterways and you'd like to see them gone. I still can't understand why. What problem would changing the rules so drastically solve?
  7. Earlier you insisted we don't talk about the law because in your view the law isn't strict enough, and any bringing of the law into it wouldn't be sufficient to deal with The Problem. But if you want to talk about the law - then lets restrict the discussion to people who are cruising 0.77 miles every 2 weeks on the dot in one direction, then after 20 miles / 26 moves / 1 year, they turn around and go back again. I fully agree that people who are not following at least this very minimum interpretation of CaRT's rules should be removed from the waterways, as does CaRT, who does indeed refuse to renew their licenses. Everyone else is just within the minimum of the law. So your first argument against CMing is invalid. As an aside, personally I don't care much for the law. Driving through villages at 50mph is wrong primarily because it is dangerous and antisocial for the people who live there. That's the reason there is a law against it. I'm looking for the reason we want laws against CMing. They are all free to choose not to! I presume they want to pay for a mooring because they like having a base, shore hookups, permanent neighbours, and not to have to follow the CC rules? CMers aren't allowed to "moor up anywhere for as long as they want", though - they are allowed to moor up to 14 days along specified areas of towpath. So this point is also neither here nor there. This is an important one, of course, and what I always thought was the main reason for the disagreements between CCers and PMers. In response though, CCers are also valid visitors, provided they are following the rules. I personally haven't ever had a major problem finding moorings, perhaps not in the exact area I wanted but that is just a factor of how congested the waterways are - a separate issue. Not CCer's "fault" as long as they are following your point 1). So you'd vote to effectively banish CCers from the system? The vast majority of boaters don't do 480 miles a year, and I doubt there'd be water left in the locks if they did. (What is a "lock-mile" by the way?) I'm still really struggling to understand what your problem is with, for example, my pattern. I obey the law. I don't drop litter or keep my crud on the bank. I don't visit the same spots twice. It looks like I'll do maybe 200 miles this year, ranging maybe 80 miles. Is it simply that you don't think I'm paying enough towards the upkeep of the waterways? I think it would be a very Bad Thing if we abolished the requirements entirely. I don't think anyone here is for reducing the CC requirements. There is however a lot of animosity towards CCers under the current rules that I'm trying to get to the root of. There are also a lot of proposals to increase the requirements that I want to hear justification for, including @Alan de Enfield's vote to increase it twenty four fold. Would I do what? Permanently moor on one spot on the towpath? That doesn't appeal to me at all. I like to move. If there were no rules, I would not change my behaviour one bit. Moving a few miles or more every week or two is pretty much perfect for me. Doing 480 miles a year, however, would not be feasible for me and if I were to try, I'd imagine boating would become a chore instead of a joy.
  8. What is your problem with such CMers? Is it the annoying questions about the minimum requirements? (Which you are free to not answer) Is it that they have no interest in the waterways? (Which may or may not be the case) Is it, then, not that you have a problem with CCers, CMers or even CCMers, but actually simply that you have a problem with people improperly dispose of refuse and grey/black water and who have a poor attitude toward other waterway users? What is the real problem(s) with CMers? If we identify the root of the issue, then it can be more easily tackled. For example, perhaps no one should be allowed to keep anything on the towpath and rangers should issue fines. Or perhaps we should confront such people in a friendly way and ask them to please not leave their junk on the towpath. Or perhaps we organise more canalside litter picks. The amount of trash on the towpath and surrounds is certainly something I want to do more to remedy. I don't think it is fair to blanket blame CCers for the actions of a few. (given as @Athy points out there is no such thing as a CC license, perhaps we should call them BWAMs - boaters without a mooring? I'm loving the acronyms 😂). It feels to me that some want to throw the baby out with the bathwater by either outlawing CCing or making the restrictions so much tighter that they would not be possible for many to follow. Selfish, maybe, but I feel that any restrictions that would make my current lifestyle impossible would not be reasonable, because I am not trying to remain in range of a particular location - indeed I want to see as much of the network as possible. Due to time, money and other interests, I am simply doing it at a much slower pace than some of the marathon CCers on the forum. It seems unreasonable (and counterproductive, in terms of lock wear and water use) to insist that a bona fide CCer CC much, much faster than they otherwise would want to.
  9. What would the number be? I won't shout it down. The M25 is around 33 miles in diameter. So can we suggest 33 miles as the range you'd like to see CaRT adopt?
  10. Indeed, as a CCer who has "ranged" around 50 miles in the last 9 months I also don't need to know (my interpretation of range being the duck-paddle distance from the two most distant points). In fact, I'd hazard to say that the point of the vagueness of CaRT's rules are that "if you have to ask, it's not enough". Two points, the furthest apart over the course of the year. It only makes sense. Are we not talking about CCers? What's your definition of CCers and how does it differ from CaRT's minimum guidelines? How far must a CCer travel before you'd consider them a genuine, valid, bona fide waterway user? Genuine question. This is a discussion, it's not intended to be personal. The OP asked whether it is possible to CC and work a full time job in London. This sounds rather personal to me. Since I suppose I'm one of these CMers, I'll try to defend the position. I neither have nor want a base (a start point), and I want to cruise the network at my own pace within the spirit and letter of the rules laid down by CaRT and the interpretation of them as seen by the legal system. I do not want to be selfish in this, and I'd really like to find some common ground to avoid the conflict between CMers, CCers and PMers. I'd rather like if all waterways users, especially boaters, could come together and love one another. I agree that CCMers (coordinated continuous moorers) are reprehensible, but can we at least agree that CCers who roam beyond a certain "range" are valid waterways users?
  11. There's no good backstop. It just can't form part of a credible deal! Donald can go Tusk himself. Wait, what were we talking about again? Oh yes. Range. No doubt what you are saying is correct, however the range from where you are doesn't double by virtue of the fact that you can fire in both directions. If you were to fire in an easterly direction, then walk 5 miles and fire again in an easterly direction, your second bullet would have travelled 10 miles from your starting point, not 20. Range being the distance between your two most separated points of your pattern seems clear to me, not double this distance. To be clear, are you saying that the email you posted implies that a CCer must have 40 miles between his or her most distant points? And @Mike the Boilerman, yes I mean as the duck paddles 😂
  12. Not "radius". Range is furthest point to furthest point. A radius if 20 miles would imply that furthest points would have to be 40 miles apart. They weren't clear whether this is as the crow flies or as the duck swims (along the canal), but I assume it is as the duck swims. If you move only every fortnight you are moving 26 times a year. If you move only in one direction and aim to range exactly 20 miles in your year, that's 0.77 miles each time. If you round up, you're moving 1 mile at a time and ranging just over 20 miles in a year. Of course if you turn around, you need to cruise further to make your range.
  13. I don't think that coordinated CMing is impossible, I just think it is unlikely and unnecessary to ensure a mooring, and it doesn't fit with what I've personally observed. There are many things that are possible that don't happen. The premise is that a significant enough portion of the boaters in London are doing coordinated CMing that it changes the character of boating in London. I'm not claiming that it doesn't happen at all, just that it doesn't happen at nearly the scale boaters who avoid London entirely are claiming. Like @Dave123 says, these are different issues. There are many occassions where such a boat moving service would be legitimate. Does CCing imply that you can never be off your boat? Indeed I myself had a boat sitter when we went on holiday, who moved our boat and stayed on it to ensure security. Though having a permanent arrangement where you have someone move your boat so you can live undisturbed by any actual BOATING is pretty ridiculous. The comments on that "boater"'s facebook post are mostly of disgust, I doubt this is an acceptable or common thing that people do long term in London. Clearly it happens, but I don't think this person represents anywhere near the majority of CCers. I'm a little confused by this. When you say "a certain range" what do you mean? What, in your view, is an acceptable cruising pattern, or an acceptable range and how does it differ from the common interpretation of CaRT's acceptable cruising pattern? You mention that you "regret the many extra restrictions and stricter enforcement". Are you saying that you'd like to occassionally cruise less than the stipulated minimum? Or simply that you regret that CaRT has to waste money monitoring this? As I understand it, CCers are expected to move at least a mile every fortnight, which works out to be at least 26 miles a year. If all boaters are moving randomly (i.e. not coordinating) I'm not sure that this is a small enough range to form a "thriving community". So really any thriving community is likely to be in breach of their licenses. Personally I think the current rules are sufficient and reasonable to allow boaters fair access to the waterways, and if anything, CaRT should come down harder on those that don't follow them. I also regret that people don't follow the rules and that we have to waste our license money policing them, but it's not fair to blame CCers in general for this rather than the ones who don't abide by the simple and minimal rules.
  14. Ah, this is why I wanted to hear more about how you think the logistics of this would work. Because if it indeed worked this way with ten boats - with boat 2 pulling out for boat 1 to immediately occupy and so on - this would be something you would observe happening, at least 9/10 of the time. I haven't seen a boat pulling out of a mooring for a waiting boat to take over. Not even once. I call shenanigans on this whole theory. It may happen occasionally within small groups of selfish (or oblivious) boaters, but it simply doesn't happen at the scale that has been suggested in this thread. There are hundreds - thousands? - of boats in London at any given time. Even if ten or twenty are involved in such an evil scheme, it isn't going to make a noticeable difference across the whole city. Besides, what an enormous amount of effort to coordinate this when you could instead cast off when you feel like it, cruise until bored and you find a spot you like, then moor up? As someone who has "done" London, in my experience such a scheme simply wouldn't be necessary. The majority of boaters abide by the rules and are navigating at least a mile every two weeks. And CaRT comes down on those who don't. It may be that in your view that 30 odd miles a year isn't enough, and I'd personally agree that there isn't much point in boating if you're just gaming the system to permanently hang around within a 30 mile wide area. But the general negative sentiment towards CMers from PMers (permanent mooring holders) and marathon-distance CCers doesn't (fortunately) count. The upshot is that generally speaking, there is a place for you to moor as a visitor to London if you aren't too picky, and if you want to CC London (to refer back to the OP), you can do it if you are willing to commute up to 30 miles a day. Of course, CaRT's rules are likely to get stricter, not more lenient, so I also wouldn't rely on this as a long term plan. But the system isn't nearly as broken as the people who don't actually cruise in London would have you believe.
  15. I'm looking to join a gym, but being a CCer I'd ideally like to have 24 hour access to all gyms (of a particular chain) across the nation so that I can use whichever is closest to me at the time. Does anyone know where I can find information about gym "coverage" in the UK, or have any suggestions for deals or contracts that I should look into?
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