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ivan&alice

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  1. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    Noted, but that may be a little uncharitable. If you have seen any of my other threads, I have carefully considered the points that forum folks have raised, which are often pretty contradictory. I'm still pretty open minded on these points, I'm just exploring them - I'd really like to unstick my thinking if it is wrong. I accept that the perception is that London commands a premium and that it may be true to some degree. I'm definitely taking it under advisement when I'm looking at the boats in London, and I look forward to comparing them with boats up country. However at the moment I'm unconvinced that London boats are that much more dear. Firstly, because it isn't logical - why aren't people buying boats in Nottingham, sailing them down to London and selling them for a cool 10K profit? Why would people sell their boats in Nottingham when they could make more money selling them in London? Second, the data doesn't agree with the theory. Below is a plot of the asking prices of all 300 of the 48' to 72' narrowboats currently up for sale on Apollo Duck right now, against the distance the boat is from London. As you can see the trend is for boats to slightly increase in price the further they get from London. I'm aware that there are other factors, it could just be that the boats for sale in London are generally inferior, but averaged out over 300 boats you should see at least somewhat of a downward trend if the London premium theory was correct. Put even more simply, a narrowboat within the M25 will cost you an average of 47100 GBP while a narrowboat without the M25 costs an average of 55544 GBP. Averaged out over three hundred boats currently for sale, London boats are eight grand cheaper. So I apologise for my stubbornness on this point but at present, I don't buy it.
  2. ivan&alice

    Rank these boat builders!

    I've done a bit more research into valuing boat builders, and I thought I'd share it with you guys to hear your thoughts. I created a big list of all 300 narrowboats on Apollo Duck that are more than 10K and more than 47'. I then grouped them by builder (of which there were 140 unique ones) and found the average price. Here's a list of boat builders in order of the most expensive average price on the market. I only included manufacturers that had 3 or more boats for sale as they have a less biased average. Any thoughts on this ranking?
  3. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    Those are in line with the prices I found less the inverter and batteries (didn't see that the Colecraft came with those - my apologies). Still, 500 quid, and that's not including the hassles and possible expense of installation. Fair enough though, I should take more care when comparing the equipment on the boats I look at. Solar might not be the most expensive bit of kit on a boat, but I don't think it's not a consideration.
  4. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    Thanks for all the advice everyone, it's a moot point as we just got a call to say the boat was just sold for cash. She's been on the market for a week. Gutted. So much for being difficult to sell on, eh? I think the market may have moved on considerably since many of you bought your boats! At least this means we'll be able to get to see some boats inland now...
  5. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    As I've said before, I also just don't buy this idea of a "London premium". Firstly, the data doesn't support it. I put 40 or 50 asking prices into a spreadsheet and run the numbers against the distance from London. No correlation whatsoever. Of course it could be that there are confounding factors or it could just be chance. A possible theory is that if there is a London premium it's counteracted by the fact that most London boats are sold by owner rather than marina. Secondly, it doesn't stand to reason. If you could get 50% more for a boat in London, why in the hell would anyone sell a boat up country for 30K when they could drive it to London and sell her for 45? Boats move, after all. Moving around is our plan, moving away is not - we would be more than happy to drive her to London to sell her for an extra 15 grand, and it boggles my mind that others would not. If we were able to get this boat for 30-35K, would you agree that the boat would be a good buy? It's a tricky one because we do intend to go look at the marinas outside of the capital over the next few weeks, but we also don't want to lose a boat that's potentially a good fit for us. Some tough decisions to be made this weekend!!
  6. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    Regarding the hull builder, I agree more information is needed: I did what I could to find out information about the hull, this is what I posted: If anyone could give me any information at all about her pedigree, that would be most helpful. I'm sorry but I simply don't buy this. Just because an engine has not been run to death does not mean it has not been well maintained. I may not know boats but I know enough about engines to know that they wear, over and above what general maintenance can fix. I believe this is most posters' primary objection to her - folks don't like the non-original interior. Granted, this will make her harder to sell, but frankly I don't care what colour the walls are, personally. I don't buy this, either. The panels are 120 gbp each (http://www.buypvdirect.co.uk/Perlight_250W_PV_Panel), the batteries are 150 each (https://www.tayna.co.uk/industrial-batteries/trojan/t-105/) and the invertor 770 gbp (https://www.sunstore.co.uk/product/victron-phoenix-compact-inverter-1200w-to-2000w-12v-24v/). At a guess I'll add on another 250 for wiring, switches, sockets and mounts, and another 250 for installation. That's well over 2kgbp worth of kit to buy new, apart from the hassle involved in getting it done. This is by far your most persuasive argument to me as resaleability is the biggest factor in my decision. Why won't this boat sell, if we get her for a reasonable price and offer her for a reasonable price? Are there simply no boaters interested in white walls? Or is it all about the hull builder - some folks simply must have a Colecraft?
  7. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    I just don't see it! It would be really really helpful if you guys could explain what respects Kastaway is better than the London boat? She's five years younger and a Colecraft, and has a washing machine. But the engine has 10x the hours and sounds like there is no solar. Is there anything I'm missing? Kind of a moot point as she's not up for sale, but I think Kastaway would have been too small for us anyway, as she apparently has a large cruiser stern. We really were after a 70'er, but the London boat, as a trad and with an appropriate layout, felt like she'd just be big enough.
  8. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    The survey comes with some pictures of the interior before the whitewash, and it looks cheap but fine, looks like a plasticy veneer underneath. We haven't seen other boats outside of London, we do plan to do so but it is difficult to find the time. We would rather do this first, of course, but we also don't want to let a potentially good boat go while we are waiting to get out of London. All that said, the data just doesn't seem to back up the theory that boats are more expensive in London. I've compared prices from all over the country and done what I can to correct for age, length and boat builder. Distance from London seems to be totally uncorrelated with the asking prices.
  9. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    She's in Little Venice, West London.
  10. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    I think this is a very reasonable approach. I agree that she's not worth as much as 45K and we'll certainly offer substantially less than this (we don't have 45 in any case). If the seller isn't willing to negotiate then we'll continue our search inland. That said, any boat is going to have its downsides and if the primary one is the colour of the walls and the orientation of the bed... I can live with that! Certainly more so than an electrical system that is too small, an engine without a calorifier, or a hull built by an amateur. We're going to take her for a test drive on Friday afternoon before we make a decision. I know that we've been recommended against an "in water survey", but we'd love to take someone who knows more than us along. Do any of you know anyone based in London, perhaps on the forum or a surveyor they could recommend, who could come along give us a second opinion?
  11. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    Gotcha. So it is possible that she's been recently whitewashed for the sale, which is actually hiding some problems?
  12. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    The interior is not really my primary concern though, because surely this can be changed, improved or fixed as and when necessary - even the cross bed? What I'm looking at is the hull, the equipment, the electrics - all of which seem really decent to me (pending survey, of course). Having looked at quite a few boats now, I think she has one of the better sets of features at her price point. In particular the electrics (500W panels, 4x batteries, inverter) are appealing to us as we need power to work from home. Beta Marine 1305 35hp engine with 1900 hours on it and a calorifier. Diesel heating system and morso stove. I'm not intimately familiar with boat equipment but from my research it all sounds good. Just to confirm, when you guys say "London focussed" are you talking about the style of the interior (modern rather than traditional)? Or what about this boat makes it more suited for London than elsewhere?
  13. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    I'm not sure I follow the logic here, with 4" wide gunwales and a maximum of 1" of hull, that's still 6' 1" of bed which should give me two inches of wiggle room (quite literally...). I really have to have my legs straight and wiggle my toes while I sleep to be comfortable though so I'll definitely test her out. I searched the forum and I found hints that Wessex Narrowboats were a hire company (see here and here) so if they did any work on boats themselves I'd assume it would be the fit out. I also see that Wessex were bought out by Alvechurch (see here and here) who it seems aren't that renowned as hull builders. So that information does support your theory that Dave Clarke built the hull and Wessex fitted it out for hire purposes? That makes the boat more appealing as the fit out seems to have changed quite a bit in the last few years.
  14. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    I just feel uncomfortable going through the process of agreeing to buy the boat and having the survey done, because I'd presume we'd want to make a tentative offer prior to having the survey done, and I don't know if a boat of those specifications is worth the asking price. This could be a problem then, I'll have to try the bed out. I'm actually about 5'11 if I've been carrying something heavy, so perhaps after a day of stocking the stove with coal I'll fit in the bed a little better.
  15. ivan&alice

    Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

    Are you saying you think there may be work done that could cause BSS failures? Agreed, it has a modern interior which is not to everyone's tastes, we do like it though - perhaps we're quite London ourselves! Good point about the across bed, I'm 6' tall so that might be an issue. Well we are given to understand we can get an in-water evaluation done for around 100 gbp. If that is the case, then it could save us an expensive survey if they pick up anything obvious. It's kind of insurance for our insurance you know? Also, I think we'd have to at least tentatively agree on a price before the survey was done, wouldn't we?
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