[thorneycroft 1800 BMC engine antifreeze]

👍🏻 Cheers

[thorneycroft 1800 BMC engine antifreeze]

Thank you, I'll take a look at that

[thorneycroft 1800 BMC engine antifreeze]

Cheers, as I wasn't sure when I bought the boat I put in a neutral antifreeze which can be mixed with both. I've been using it ever since, but having trouble finding it, so I've bought blue

As a rule, blue coolant is for cast iron engines, while red is for aluminium engines. A good rule of thumb is that if your car is from before 2000, you should choose blue coolant. If your car is from after 2000, choose red coolant.6 Jan 2022

 

https://www.autobutler.co.uk › blog

 

 

This is what the guy in Halfords said too

[thorneycroft 1800 BMC engine antifreeze]

Cheers, as I wasn't sure when I bought the boat I put in a neutral antifreeze which can be mixed with both. 

[thorneycroft 1800 BMC engine antifreeze]

Hi all, does anyone know what anti freeze to use in this engine? Not sure if it's the pink or blue?

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

5 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Is there the slightest possibility that both the wires from the clocks that go to the senders have been chaffed through so that they are shorted to the engine block or the hull?

That would give exactly the same result, full scale deflection of the gauges.

If you disconnect the sender wires at the clocks end, do the gauges drop back?

Hi Tracy, as Tony said it may be difficult to separate the sender wires as all in one shroud, but over the weekend I'll see if it's possible as I'm wondering if it could possibly be the sender's. It's a 30 year old boat and may well be original senders. Although the chances of them failing together is doubtful, I wondered could some sort of power surge have knocked them out? Probably not but maybe possible I don't know. 

Although the rev counter is not working, this failed some time after and not the same time as the two gauges.

I'll also trace where that other wire leads to. 

The prospect of eating camel dung is more appealing than than trying to sort this out but it's gotta be done.

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Many thanks for that info. That lot looks a lot neater than man.

 

Now I can see the photo it seems that your gauges have illuminating lamps in them and I think they will be the ones with conventional pair of blade terminals. If you used the negative for these (probably black) then it would make absolutely no difference to the instruments.

 

The cables that work the instruments seem to be in three entry plugs. The white cables are probably 12V + when the ignition is one, the black 12V-, and the other colour (green, white with a brownish trace, and what looks like black with blue splodge on the rev counter) are the sender cables. So you need to connect to the black wires, a thin screwdriver down the hole in the black plastic shroud will usually or push a pin right through the cable.

 

I notice that it looks as if there is a black cable on the ignition switch and with this cable colour code black is definitely negative. There is no way a true negative cable should be connected anywhere on the ignition switch. This black wire needs tracing to see what the other end is connected to.

 

Try a voltmeter or test lamp between engine battery positive and the negative connection in the three-way shrouds on the gauge in turn. In each case the meter should read battery voltage (12V+) or the test lamp should illuminate. If it does not, then it confirms there is no negative connection.

 

FWIW I can't see any obviously bad connections.

PS, what are these "Clicks", would that be clocks?

 

 

The OP said, but not in so many words, that the rev counter is not working and if that cable had shorted it would have shorted one phase of the alternator and possibly burned. This is why I still suspect no negative.  It will do no harm to do as you suggests but I am not sure how easy it is to pull the sender wire out of the black shroud and leave the others in place. If it is possible/easy, it would eliminate such a short or faulty senders.

PS, if you can confirm there is a working negative connection on the three instruments, then the fault is far more complex and your engineer deserves an apology from me.

 

As a lot of the black cables seem to be singles rather than twins in the connections and running back into the harness, I wonder if there is a negative connector block for the instruments elsewhere, or they have been joined within the loom.

Hi Tony, clicks should've spelt clocks, I'll blame predictive texting. 

Over the weekend I'll try running negative wire from volt gauge and try volt meter between battery positive and negative in the three way shroud.

I'll also trace the black wire from the ignition switch to see where it leads to.

As I said to Tracy,  I was wondering if it could possibly be the sender's, thought very unlikely they failed at the same time, could a power surge have possibly knocked them out? 

She's a 30 year old boat and possibly the original senders in it, and the rev counter failed some time after the clocks stopped working, so poss separate issue. If so, I may have trouble getting replacement sender's to match the clocks as may now be obsolete.

But need to find out if there is a working negative, which hopefully these further tests will confirm either way.

 

 

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

20 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Please don't order anything. I posted those images to help you identify how your gauges are wired. Hopefully the photo(s) will help. There are other ways, including putting two eye terminals on one instrument stud.

 

If it is easier, you can link the voltmeter negative to each instrument negative in turn, turn the ignition on, and see if the gauges jump back to cold/no pressure.

 

If your instruments started waving about all over the place at random times, it speaks for a loose connection.

Hi Tony, I ran a wire from neg batteries terminal to oil then temp negatives. Clicks still behaved the same.

I'll now try running wire from volt meter neg to oil and temp neg 

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

Hi Tracy, I have traced the brown yellow to the alternator, I think it's redundant from an earlier alternator. There is no male connector on the back of alternator for it to connect to

The brown wire is a bit of a mystery. It may be to the horn button which is damaged and disconnected, though not sure that's where it went to.

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

19 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

See if this helps.

 

These are piggy-back connectors. The female blade pushes over the terminal on the instrument allowing a feed to the next instrument to be pushed onto he male blade.

 

Although this is a fuse panel, it shows the looped in system with two wires in one crimp terminal.

 

 

 

In both cases a bad connection will give the symptom you have, and with the looped in system it can be hard to spot.

 

There are also things called Scotchlocks that allow wires to be looped along the instruments. This is a Scotchlock.

These have a horrible habit of breaking the conductors in a wire so you get an open circuit. These are even more difficult to spot.

 

 

Why not post a photo of the back of the panel with wires attached.

 

Looking at picture, too left is volt meter which works, top right is ignition set up, bottom left is temperature, and bottom right is oil pressure. 

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

See if this helps.

 

These are piggy-back connectors. The female blade pushes over the terminal on the instrument allowing a feed to the next instrument to be pushed onto he male blade.

 

Although this is a fuse panel, it shows the looped in system with two wires in one crimp terminal.

 

 

 

In both cases a bad connection will give the symptom you have, and with the looped in system it can be hard to spot.

 

There are also things called Scotchlocks that allow wires to be looped along the instruments. This is a Scotchlock.

These have a horrible habit of breaking the conductors in a wire so you get an open circuit. These are even more difficult to spot.

 

 

Why not post a photo of the back of the panel with wires attached.

 

Thank you Tony, I will order these and replace the old ones. Tomorrow I'll do the test you recommend and take a pic of the back of the panel and post it here. 

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And Tony is suggesting you do the test yourself. 

You have no idea how many newbies pop up on here saying a 'professional' has looked at or tested some aspect of their boat and declared it unrepairable. Some of those newbies get all huffy when someone suggests their 'professional' may not actually be competent in the particular area under discussion, get angry when the advice from experienced boaters here conflicts with what they have been told, and some flounce out never to be heard of again. Others listen to what they are told on the forum, ask questions about points they don't understand, and are guided through a few DIY tests to narrow down exactly what the problem is or which component may have failed. And in many cases all it has taken is a simple DIY fix to solve the problem.

So if someone on here asks for further details of the problem, or perhaps some photos, or suggests a couple of simple tests, take this as well-intentioned (and free) advice that could save you hundreds of pounds.

I agree, and I'm very grateful for the advise I have received. I'll try all that has been suggested and Prime am very appreciative of the support I have been given. I just don't like being insulted.  I and I'm sure many others who come on here may struggle with getting their head around certain aspects of understanding the situation. 

I give out a lot of advice in my own field and sometimes teach. Sometimes people get it straight away and sometimes they don't, but I would never belittle or insult them. 

Everyone has been very helpful and supportive, apart from the donky poster, who in my opinion shouldn't be engaging if he cannot be constructive.

Thank you for your support, it is most appreciated.

 

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think the opinion of you by several very experienced forum members is that you are not listening to advice, not willing to even test things suggested and that you are seemingly no longer worth making the effort to help.

As you explained. The test has already been done! 🙄 It seems you're not listening, too busy insulting.  

Just now, christophert said:

As I explained. The test has already been done! 🙄 It seems you're not listening, too busy insulting.  

 

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

But the rev counter does not have a sender as such so if that has stopped working it either means the alternator has failed or it is something else and all your symptoms indicate it is the lack of a negative to the gauges. No negative would affect all three instruments you listed.

 

 

If they are any good, they will want the panel on and connected to the boat. Otherwise, they will need to make up a jury-rig to test it, and you will pay for that.

 

I have told you how to carry out a simple test, I have even told you what you probably need to look for, and your comment about the wiring suggest that I am probably correct about how it is wired. I am not going to flog this particular dead horse because there is no point in repeating myself time and time again, I will leave you to rack up bills.

 

 

As I explained in an earlier post, this test was done by the engineer.  I have no intention of racking up bills but thank you for your advise.

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Why the insult? I came on here looking for advice and support, which has been given by some kind considerate people. I'm very knowledgeable in my own field of expertise, and can certainly think and work out complex problems which others may not be able. 

It's people like you who put off others seeking help with the likes of your visual comment. 

Behaviour like that is, in my opinion, quite sad.

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

and does that fee include new senders which may be needed to match the new guages

I'm wondering if changing the sender's is first port of call. Chances of both going together is slim but worth a pop.The rev counter failed after the gauges behaved as though they were shorting, so possibly a separate issue

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

There are mobile auto electricians in Tamworth, Coventry, Nuneaton and Atherstone according to Yell.

BUT if you buy a new panel it will do exactly the same! Its not the clocks, its wiring!!!!

I'm wondering if it's worth paying to have a new wiring harness fitted, as the electrics do look a mess

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

You have no idea how often those of us with proper knowledge and experience have heard that said.

 

In any case, you do not need a new panel. I am sure VDO supply both US and European standard gauges, and a decent electrician can find out which one is needed by measuring the sender resistance. Even if his diagnosis was correct, all you will need is new instruments. I advise that you do not even contemplate that course of action.

Going to see if someone local can test panel to rule it out, then maybe pay to have new wiring harness fitted as wiring very untidy and messy

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

12 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

What test instruments did this engineer use to look for the fault that he could not find?

I'm not sure, but he's 30 years experience and sure he knows his stuff, just the thought of parting with £850 for a panel isn't something that's appealing. That's not his quote, that's what Thornycroft has quoted. A lot of money for a few dials.

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

15 minutes ago, Tonka said:

I assume you haven't got a manual for the engine with a wiring diagram in for the panel.

Unfortunately not, nor can I find a diagram for this panel on the web also

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I know that you claim they are "earthed OK", but as far as the oil pressure and temperature gauges are concerned, then the symptom is typical of the loss of the negative. The loss of the negative would also stop the rev counter working. The lamps go to negative on the engine, not the instrument panel negative.

 

It sounds as if there is no negative to the panel, so probably a wire off the battery/negative bus bar, the main negative to the panel fallen off at the panel *they are often "piggybacked".

 

Try running a test negative cable from engine battery negative to the negative cables on one of the instruments. The negatives on the instruments are often daisy-chained, so ensuring the cable/terminal on one should provide it for the rest. If that solves the problem, you will need to find out where the broken connection is and mend it.

 

Note for others - some very old boats may have slow moving two terminal gauges that use a voltage stabiliser and for the two gauges a duff stabiliser would give that symptom, but not the rev counter not working. I am sure VDO are three terminal bi-coil gauges, hence the above.

 

19 minutes ago, christophert said:

Hi Tony,  thank you for your reply. This is way over my head so I called out an engineer. He was stumped and could not find what the issue was. He put it down to the panel being old and warn out. 

Could you recommend an electrical specialist who could take a look ? 

Hi Tony, I spoke with the engineer, he said this is what he was looking for and found no problem.

16 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Which part of the country are you

I'm in Polesworth, B77 Near Tamworth

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

56 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

It has the classic symptoms of no negative on bi-coil gauges, whatever the OP may claim, so yes, sort the wiring out before condemning the instruments. I have explained how to do it without using a meter. I would be interested in knowing exactly, and I mean exactly, how the OP tested the negative to form his conclusion, because I am all but sure it was not a valid test. I suspect it was more likely a thought exercise based on a lack of knowledge and coming to the wrong conclusion.

Hi Tony,  thank you for your reply. This is way over my head so I called out an engineer. He was stumped and could not find what the issue was. He put it down to the panel being old and warn out. 

Could you recommend an electrical specialist who could take a look ? 

[Thornycroft Instrument Panel]

I'm hoping someone can help me please.

My narrow boat has a Thornycroft instrument panel  with VDO gauges - being a rev counter, temperature  gauge, oil pressure  gauge and volt meter  gauge. When I switch  the ignition on the temperature  and oil pressure  gauge  swing across to the far right as though there is a shot circuit  of some kind, but are earthed Ok. None of the dials are working,  except  the voltage gauge.
The engine is a Thornycroft BMC 1800 diesel  I believe  also known as a 108


The cost for a new instrument  panel is £850.00 !  It's just far too expensive.
Is there any way I can test the gauges to see if the issue lies with them? Or does anyone know of a second hand unit for sale?

Any assistance will be much  appreciated.

 

[Energy bill support]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone has had any help with the government energy support? If you have a permanent address it can be claimed, eg, a house or permanent mooring, but living on the cut as far as I know there isn't any support.

[Alternator, fitting more power]

26 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Fitting a larger alternator gives diminishing returns because after initially speeding things up, as the batteries become more charged they take less and less current. That lengthy period of getting a battery from fairly well charged to fully charged, will take just as long. There is also the issue of how to drive the alternator. A large alternator presents a large mechanical load that cannot be dealt with by a conventional V belt. It depends on the pulley setup / how much belt wrap there is on your alternator setup, but the general consensus is that about 90A is the maximum to reliably drive from a V belt.

 

It might be worth looking at replacing the alternator with similar, but fitting something like a Sterling A2B or Adverc alternator controller thingy. These result in a significant reduction in time for the mid-charge phase.

 

As you say, a 15A charger is fine for permanent mains connection but insufficient for charging with a generator. But of course whatever charger you get has to be able to be powered by the generator, with some margin for surge load, so it depends on what generator you have.

Thank you. The generator is a bit excessive. It's a 3 cylinder 1100 cc ! 

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Which wiring ?

That's why I'm on here, trying to get my head around it all 🙂

[Alternator, fitting more power]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.  I was informed that a higher amp alternator is better as you do not need the engine running for longer periods. It seems I was misinformed.

[Alternator, fitting more power]

Good afternoon all. I'm hoping someone can help. I believe my alternator has passed away so I need s new one. It is,was, a 70 amp, receipt from fitting in 2014 shows Alt 6039 alternator A127 R/H 12 volt 70 amp. 

My batteries,  X 3, are fine still and they are-

Exide er 650 142 AH 12v  

My relay is - Durite 120 amp 

Battery charger is Waeco Perfectcharge IU1512

(I believe this is suitable for one leisure bat only.)

 I'm presuming for my battery bank the alternator is/was not powerful enough to charge the bank,  (I'm aware it would if engine left running for s very long time.)

I was thinking a more powerful alternator but not sure what to go for. I will be replacing the battery charger which is good when when on shore line (24/7) but not up to it when out on the canal and using generator to power it.

I hope people can help.

Regards,

Sean

[Toilet Seat How much !!]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

So I had a look on B&Q's website. The cheapest toilet seat they sell is priced at £7, the next at £15 and from there they range up to £85. So the Thetford price doesn't look so unreasonable.

For a piece of flimsy Chinese plastic,  I disagree.

52 minutes ago, rasputin said:

only for 12 months apparently 

Apparently

[Toilet Seat How much !!]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Lol, they could be yanking your chain.

 

Tyre dealers do this especially. Quote ridiculously low when they don't have the size you want, so when you tell other dealers the price they need to beat, they can't.

No, it's from a reputable chandler 👍