Tony Brooks
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Posts posted by Tony Brooks
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11 minutes ago, Tonka said:
I thought that most Dawncrafts were outboard
Which means that it was probably never fitted with a bilge pump because the canopy would have kept most of the rain out of the boat.
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15 minutes ago, Lizette said:
Hi I didn't look at replies until just now because my neighbour said he would test it.
I always listen to advice and actually I have quite enjoyed trouble shooting. I am sorry if people feel I haven't tak n on board suggestions but that is not the case.
Hi As said previously I did test battery. As soon as my battery is returned I shall test whilst cranking.
I learnt a lot from removing the starter motor,so time not wasted.
I run it for a couple of hours each day on over 10 on speedometer. How I was shown when I bought the boat.
How would I know if the engine has sucked up water? Any tell tale signs?
Yes
A bit over 1000 rpm (10 on the rev counter) is good enough, but if you have an inverter and use it, then it may not be enough during the winter. If you don't have an accurate ammeter, then I would suggest about 4 hours a day is best to keep your batteries in fair condition. If you have a fair bit of solar, then you would need far less engine charging in summer.
The chances of the engine sucking up water is very remote unless the boat was flooded, so you can discount that. Tell tail signs - the engine turns a fraction and then locks solid, then the starter may get hot and eventually machine gun (rapid clicking).
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7 minutes ago, Tonka said:
Does it have an inboard engine?
I was wondering that, but suspect that if it is a Z drive it would not leak anything like as much as one with a conventional drive line/stern gland.
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9 minutes ago, Lizette said:
I am on the Oxford
Roughly what area? If south of Banbury I would happily come and have a look & do the voltmeter tests FOC ONCE I get my car back from the garage, but at present I have no idea when that will be.
How long do you run for and at what revs every day or so, because it still gives some indications of a flat/faulty start battery and a discharge domestic bank.
2 minutes ago, Lizette said:Hi I did test battery and said 13,this was on the clamps. My fellow boater tested this morning and it was 8. The body wasn't getting warm on the starter motor.
Well, that tells me that you were not operating the starter at the time, or you have a bad connection between battery and starter - like Arthur found on his boat. Doing voltmeter tests of starting circuits without the starter operating are invalid tests.
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Sorry to say this after you did all that work, but the idea of test procedures is to avoid unnecessary work, so if you had followed the test procedure I gave you it would almost certainly have shown that you had a flat or faulty battery.
I am not going to say much more until I can see some test results, but there is every chance that your next move is to buy a new battery. The existing one may have a shorting cell or be badly sulphated, unless you left it unattended and charged over the winter, in which case a good charge might recover it enough to get it working for now.
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3 minutes ago, MtB said:
True.
And curiously, doing a bit of pop philosophy reading up on why Occam's Razor is not as much help as one might first expect regarding whether God exists, or not, It came up with almost exactly the starter motor scenario we've been discussing!!
"But some caution is needed. If Ockham’s razor is used properly it can be a very helpful tool, but if used incorrectly it can become a dangerous instrument. First, consider a scenario where Ockham’s razor works. Suppose your car won’t start. Two possible explanations are a) that the battery is faulty and b) that the starter motor is faulty. You call a mechanic who quickly determines that there is indeed a problem with the battery. Since this would explain why the car didn’t start, there is no longer any reason to think that there is a problem with the starter motor. Ockham’s razor removes the need for the further explanation. Or to put it another way, the truth of the faulty battery hypothesis has explained away the faulty starter motor hypothesis. Of course, it is possible that there is a problem with both the battery and the starter motor. That cannot be ruled out until the car starts, but it would be really unlucky; based on the evidence so far and the application of Ockham’s razor, one explanation is sufficient."
https://philosophynow.org/issues/115/Science_Ockhams_Razor_and_God
P.S. Ockham and Occam are interchangeable spellings apparently, for the village near Guildford where the chap lived.
And that is why it can be difficult and tedious giving advice and trying to cover all possibilities. In this thread, Arthur came up with another possibility that I had not considered because it is, in my view, an exceptionally rare fault. However, if the OP had come back with the results of the tests I suggested, and they seemed OK I would have considered the next set of tests and explained them.
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21 minutes ago, Michelle21 said:
can anyone please tell me where the bilge pump is on a dawncraft 32
Are you sure that there is a fixed one. I would expect a hand operated portable one like this:
That is unless a fixed one has been fitted by an owner. it could be electric or hand operated. Look around the engine room, on the hull bottom, for an electric one.
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17 minutes ago, MtB said:
Threads like this where the OP ignores the responses also help future visitors with the same problem, however. So they are not actually a waste of effort.
But if the OP came back and told us what they found, it would be even more valuable for others looking to solve a similar sounding problem.
I think that if someone asks for help, they should at least knowledge that help, even if it turns out to be wrong. I think just ignoring the thread is just plain rude.
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29 minutes ago, STIG said:
So there must be other midnight blue paint jobs with masonsP type I would like to hear from anyone who’s changed from masons, what did you use, what shade did you find to be a very close match. I’ve been looking down the epifanes and hmg routes, not too happy with craftmaster as it has too much of a purple hew
Not directly applicable, but may be helpful. We had our boat painted in a Masons dark green, Then Masons got taken over and went off the market. I never found a decent match from an alternative supplier of notional Masons colour. That is after cutting back and polishing to get back to close to the original colour.
I bit the bullet and chose the closest RAL/BS colour to what I wanted, luckily I was able to but a set of RAL & BS colour chips. So having got the RAL number, I used Johnnstons trade centre to mix to the number in their oil based gloss. I found Johnstons oil based paint was the easiest to apply and lay off compared with a number of others, including Craftsmaster.
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I agree that most modern car radios are needlessly complicated to operate. I suspect the internals across brands use common integrated circuits. One tends to think brand name = quality and long life, but me experience of Sony car radio do not bear this out. I have just looked for "basic car radio" on Amazon and found a few around £20, at least one of which has an obvious power button. At least one had an EQ button, so it should be possible to address the higher frequency hearing loss someone raised. None seemed to have a fader control, so if you have speakers at the front and back of the boat, you won't be able to turn one end volume down to zero. At that price for what looks like a simple radio, I suspect one is worth a punt.
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No idea about "better" because most tanks seem to have welded in pipes of one sort or another, but it occurs to me that you could drill a hole close, but not quite at the bottom of the bulkhead and fit a metal (brass/bronze) skin fitting with soft sealing washers, perhaps with adhesive sealer, either side. That way you would not need a welder now or in the future, but it would be slightly more likely to leak. This is just an idea, not a recommendation. The hole will have to be high enough for the fitting's flange, washers and nuts to clear any weld line along the bottom of the bulkhead.
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Very pleased to hear you have a tool for those nuts, I fear that nowadays many do not torque them up.
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43 minutes ago, GBW said:
I found a 11/16" ring spanner to fabricate a "joggled" spanner for the nuts buried under the rocker shaft.
So how do you intend to torque those nuts up? You either need a crows foot spanner/socket or fit the rocker shaft, tighten the thinner studs, and the draw shaft (assuming enough room) leaving the pedestals in place, torque up the head and then refit the shaft. That becomes a bit f a jigsaw with the washers, springs and rockers.
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4 minutes ago, GBW said:
Two of the head nuts are extra height, through threaded and the filter bracket bolts on top.
So height/length, not thickness.
I think that is the mariniser's adaption. I can't recall any longer ones on the Newage/Tempest marinisations. I don't recall needing a deep socket for the bracket nuts. The brackets from various marinisers did vary.
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I had a feeling they have a coarse thread in the block, so take care. I am not going to swear to that, but it was common practice.
I seem to recall the socket size is 5/8 AF for all the true head studs, so probably 7/16 UNF (but you can never be sure with BMC).
The rocker post screws that screw into the head are, I think, 5/16, but again I suspect a different thread on each end.
As far as I know, the filter bracket fits on the normal head studs, so the same diameter as the others.
This site may help you get the stud size from spanner size:
https://www.bolts.co.uk/guides-and-tips/nuts-and-bolts/imperial-and-metric-spanner-sizes/
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6 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:
Mine suffered that when the earth connection got seriously filthy. Seemed too simple a cause to be true.
That is when, after the tests I described show no faults, you should really do volt drop tests. In this case, a voltmeter between battery "post" negative and the starter negative terminal or body and operate the starter. I bet if you did that you would have found close to battery voltage rather than a few 10ths of a volt.
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16 minutes ago, MtB said:
Yes.
And then, once the off-load voltage has been confirmed as high enough, the voltage with the key turned to 'cranking' (starting) position please. So far we have focussed on how much it drops by.
But the battery voltage might hardly drop at all when the key is held in the start position, in which case this indicates solenoid switch failure or worn out brushes to me. But you know more than I do!
Also, giving the starter motor a sharp clout with something heavy (but not metal) will sometimes get a starter motor doing this working again temporarily.
But it is clicking, so that indicates the solenoid is probably engaging and disengaging (Machine gunning) and the usual cause is something preventing the battery from delivering enough current to the starter. So the stationary starter tries to pull a huge current, that pulls the voltage down enough for the solenoid to disengage. The load comes off the battery, so it all repeats itself.
If it were a sticking brush the motor would be likely to spin but at reduced speed and there was no mention of that. This is where a sharp tap with something non-metallic may help.
If the solenoid contacts were not making a good contact the motor could not pull the voltage down so it should not machine gun.
It would machine gun if the solenoid hold in coil was open circuit, but that is a very rare faault.
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51 minutes ago, MtB said:
And what is this "good voltage", I find myself wondering...
Until confirmed, I suspect that it is the open circuit voltage, not the cranking voltage. So if the battery is discharged the OP could easily get over 12V dropping to sub 8V during cranking.
This is the first thing that needs clarifying.
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56 minutes ago, Tacet said:
Are you sure the battery showing a good voltage is the same one that serves the starter motor?
A very good point.
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Yes, both the above are good advice.
Measure the voltage while you are trying to crank the engine. Do it on the cable clamps, not the lead post. You need it to maintain 10V (Lucas figure), but I dont get too worried about 9.5V as long a sit is not dropping to a marked extent.
If the voltage drops below those figures, then:
1. Clean the terminals' mating surfaces to bright metal, dress with Vaseline, and refit. maybe not gorilla tight because that can snap the pots out of the battery lid, but properly tight.
2. If it still drops, the battery is probably flat or faulty, but it could be a shorting starter motor, so feel the body to see if it is getting well warm.
3. This is rare but if the hold in coil inside the starter solenoid detaches one end it will do exactly what you describe, but the cranking voltage would be closer to the rested voltage.
4. A seized or jammed engine can also cause this, but in your case it i very unlikely unless it has sucked up some water.
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46 minutes ago, KID said:
Thank you...have had as best look I can, but looks to me the engine plaques have been removed.
But cleaning a bit of gunk off front of oil filter, seems it is a brass unit ( not usual looking screw off / on type I was expecting ).....so bit odd.
That may not be a conventional filter, especially if it has anything looking like a tap handle on one end. There are filter assemblies about that consist of a spool of closely wound, single layers of thin wire. The can also have a scraper blade, operated by the handle, that removes deposits from the wire spool. Those you just remove and wash out in paraffin or white spirit.
It might also be a removable bowl that contains the actual element.
I think some older engines use a washable felt filter, but you need a trad engine bod to say anything more.
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1 minute ago, KID said:
Hi Tony,
Thanks for that...such a mess, almost imposs to see anything, but will get busy with WD-40 degreaser to reveal engine number...then to find filter supplier...ciao & ta !
Where are you in the country. For instance, Bryco in Daventry (near Braunston) is a Deutz dealer and once you have an engine ID they just might be able to supply the dipstick. Lots of dealers around the country on the Deutz website. If any are in a good mood, they might be willing to talk you through engine identifying features.
Once you have the filter numbers, matching them should not e difficult.
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You may find the filters have the maker's part numbers on them so they can be cross-referenced for equivalents, but if the oil filter, assuming that you have one, not all engines do, is an element inside a canister the number may be very difficult to read because of the black oil staining on the element.
Without an engine model and number the dipstick may be very difficult to source so you may have to drain all the oil out via a simp plug or crankcase door and the refill with the recommended amount so you can mark up a length of metal rod. However, without an engine ID I am not sure how you find the amount of oil needed.
You could try posting some photos - top, each side, front and back - and someone here might be able to identify it.
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12 hours ago, blackrose said:
That's the way they were done in the first place that's failed.
But were they a decent hard wood or softwood? I know on mine they went into softwood that I am not sure was even treated softwood. While I think nuts and machine screws are probably the best bet in your case, I can't help thinking about dropping the spanner(s) inside the cabin lining. I wonder if there is a plastic section that could substitute for hard wood, even if you do have to drill and countersink the cabin side so you can use a screw to hold the plastic sections in place.
Clicking when trying to start engine
in Boat Equipment
Posted · Edited by Tony Brooks
What do you mean by "a panel" please? That could be anything from a remote inverter read out panel, the typical engine control panel with a variety of instruments or if you are lucky a battery monitor read out and controls. If the latter and it has an ammeter function, then there is a pretty accurate way of knowing when the domestic batteries are more or less fully charged.
It is not so much an inverter as such, although cheaper ones tend to use a lot of electricity just to work themselves when turned on, but people with inverters often run mains equipment that they would not do when on 12V. Without knowing a lot about the appliances you use and for how long and the alternator(s) output, it is difficult to make any valid suggestions about battery charging.