Tony Dunkley

That's right, if boats are kept up against the bottom gates there's no chance of catching the cill. I think there is a tendency nowadays to keep back from the gates for fear of the stem fender getting caught up, but if stem fenders were not chained down in place then that cannot happen either.

I can't agree that a blocked ground paddle could have contributed in any way, but from what I've heard about the state of that lock, the poor sod drawing the bottom paddles may have been too knackered by the task to be in a fit state to get them closed again quickly.

Yes, a notice smack in front of you when drawing the bottom paddles and telling you to make sure the boat's clear of the Sill and can't drift back on to it (such as when there's a strong wind blowing uphill) would certainly help. I know more notices won't improve the look of anything, but sunken boats don't look too good either.

Surely it would be better in every respect to establish the real cause for the accident and then do something positive to prevent a recurrence, instead of a lot of tripe in statements intended to mislead insurers or anyone else involved, or observing.

I think that answer must be for another Post.

I dont' buy that . . . deeper doesn't equate with "trickier" . . . the hire company has also made the similar claim that "they were caught out by the depth of the lock".

I wonder if James Griffin really said, or believes, this statement . . . attributed to him in a newspaper article : -- 'Managing director James Griffin said the couple who hired the narrowboat were 'experienced boaters', but were caught out by the depth of the lock, which was several feet deeper than the average lock. He said the couple had been 'quite unlucky'. There seems to have been a lot of boats sinking in locks this year . . . is it about average, or have there been more than usual?

Yes, I would think that's very probably the reason for the difference. In the confines of the Humber, Trent and Ouse the wind direction and strength must affect things differently from an expanse of water like the Thames Estuary. I think I've read, or heard, somewhere that the Humber drains away about one fifth off the run off from the whole country. The effect of fresh on water levels is minimal at the lower ends of the Trent and Ouse, and in the Humber, but increases very much further up both rivers.

Yes, same sort of variations John, and the amount of fresh in the river also has an effect on both height and timings.To some extent it is possible to anticipate the variations by taking into account wind strength and direction, and pressure on the day and relating it back to the effects it has had on predictions for the previous few days.

It was certainly predicted to be a fairly big tide . . . 8.8m ( Albert Dock Outer Sill) . . . 0.2m more than yesterday morning, and you left Keadby about half an hour after flood. In those circumstances you would usually expect it to be running up well and giving a good push all the way from Keadby. Poor tides sometimes occur for various reasons, such as effects of strong winds or high pressure, and sometimes tides can be a lot later than predicted. Given that you started to to get a push after an hour and ended up at Cromwell in 6 hours, that would be the likely result of a tide that was very late and didn't make predicted height. If that was the case on that particular day, it would have been a bit quicker journey in terms of running time if you had left Keadby later but I wouldn't think it would have made much difference to arrival time at Cromwell. I think the only real gain from leaving later would have been a small saving in fuel.

Can you remember the date, and the time you left Keadby?

Watch for flood at Torksey tonight, from about 2045, and make a note of the time it arrives. You can keep an eye on a stone or something else in the bank on the water's surface at that time, but with the tides as they are now you should feel a slight 'flush', enough to move the boat a bit, run down the Cut and back out again just at flood time. Tomorrow morning's tide is predicted to be 9 minutes later than tonight's, so if you get underway exactly12 hours after tonight's flood, you'll be in the river when the tide caches you up and get the most possible help from it up to Cromwell with the river level rising, all the way . . . . . handy if you do happen to ground anywhere. Before it gets dark tonight, or as soon as it's light tomorrow, it would be useful to you if you walk up to the Cut end and have a look at the way the ebb moves around the slack just there, then you'll know what to expect your boat to do as you pass through it when turning into the river. Have a look at the ness opposite the Cut end as well.

At least you can take some comfort from not being alone in getting it wrong. Have you sent off your Membership Application for the Flat Earth Society yet?

To be completely accurate on the time of arrival at Torksey, Victor V's Post said "Into Cut 1015". My estimate was -- "at Torksey about 1000 to1015 at the latest." . . . not " tied up by".

You obviously think that was directed at you then . . . . well, if the cap fits.

Yes, it is fairly noisy . . . almost as bad as the irritating rattle that keeps occurring on this Forum.

The lockeeper is correct in what he has told you about tomorrows tides and there is some merit in the suggestion to push on to Cromwell, but if you don't know the river well enough there is the possibility that you could find yourself in the situation I outlined Post 10. There is very little chance of you coming to any real harm, but I don't think you would enjoy it very much. If you do ground somewhere short of Cromwell and can't get moving again before the water level starts to fall, you could be floating off on the next tide late at night, in the dark, with no moon and in a river that I don't think you're familiar with. The Friday morning tide is predicted to be the same as tomorrows, so if you do stop overnight at Torksey and leave on the very first of the flood on Friday morning you will have a quick easy run up to Cromwell with a rising river level all the way. PS. If you do stop at Torksey, swing as soon as you get there, before you tie up, so there's plenty of water under you in the Cut, and you're doing it while the tide's still rising, but under no circumstances at or close to HW time . . the level drops the first foot or so very quickly and suddenly. If you then put a Post on here, I'll tell you how to work out the time to get underway on Friday morning.

I'm really starting to get a bit worried about you now . . . you're obviously having a lot of difficulty despite the new moon tonight . . . right now you should be at your best.

Yes that's right . . . I put (Outer Sill - Albert Dock) at the side of the figures on the Post. For Hull, ABP now publish tide heights as Depth on Outer Sill at all three docks and the same at Immingham and Grimsby. Only at Goole do they still relate depth on the outer sill to Chart Datum, which is 2.4m above the Outer Sill at Ocean Lock and 2.3m at Victoria Lock. Earlier on you said "By contrast the last big tides were over 9m" . . . so that would be around when there was the biggest predicted tide for the year which was 9.7m over the Outer Sill at Albert Dock on Thursday 11 Sept. Chart Datum is 1.2m above the Outer Sill at Albert Dock so the height of that tide would have been 8.5m above Chart Datum. So, when you mentioned tides over 9m you were, in fact, quoting the depth on Albert Dock Outer Sill and not the tide height above Chart Datum . . . there's nothing wrong with expressing tide height that way for the purpose of comparison, but I think you should try to be a little more consistent when choosing the basis for yet another helping of your so very incisive criticism.

ABP Hull . . . out of their Tide book.

Th 25 Sept HW Hull 0734 (BST) 8.6m ( Outer Sill - Albert Dock) 1959 (BST) 8.6m

I'm glad to hear that . . . . I thought I would end up trying to find a Charity that wanted a small bag of washers. Just as a matter of interest . . . what makes you think we're on small tides at the moment? . . . there's a new moon tonight.

I hope you work for a company that pays you what you're worth.

By 0630 (on Th 25 Sept) around one third of the time for the flood (ingoing tide) running up will have gone. You will get a good push up to Torksey, and based on the speed estimates you have given for your boat I would expect you to be at Torksey about 1000 to1015 at the latest. There will still be some tide running up at Torksey and you will have plenty of time left to make Cromwell (about another 16 miles), but you will run out of tide before Cromwell. There won't be very much in the way of ebb to bother you but the river level will start to drop a little in the last few miles. So, if you don't know the river well enough to be sure that you won't ground anywhere, and then have to wait for the next tide (probably around 2230- 2300 that night where you're likely to be) you would be better off stopping at Torksey and then leaving there on the first of the flood the following morning.

Are you leaving Keadby at 0600, or is that the time you were given to be there when you booked the pen?