Tony1

I wonder if there has been a bit of a slow down in lithium sales, and perhaps partly due to potential buyers holding off to see if there are any new requirements or rules incoming? Its not just narrowboats- the yachting folks will be aware of rumours about possible new lithium safety rules and possible insurance implication- and that is a huge market. I have to say though, the batteries do look a great bargain. I reckon there are a lot of boaters who could live aboard comfortably with a Fogstar 300Ah battery at £765, and that would last them at least a decade if looked after. If you already have a genny, you could use that to run a couple of the Fogstar lithium battery chargers at £65 each, and you'd have a set up that will charge reasonably quickly, all for under £900 (plus cabling and other bits).

I can see it sounds a bit daft when you put it like that, but it wasn't simply the usage of a washing machine that was the key thing. I think the poster was making the point that if there was a washing machine installed, it was an indicator that the boat was quite likely to have been used as a liveaboard, and so all the other stuff for liveaboard life would be set up and capable. But having said all that, I've found so far that liveaboards prioritise all sorts of different things on their boats. My priority is lots of solar and lithium batteries, and of course my ferret-throttling chamber. Other people think fridges are not necessary in Winter, so they presumably store their ferrets in the cratch prior to cooking. Other people require an alternator the size of Wales. Some very strange folk out there if you ask me.

Do you have a link? I'd love to get hold of a small washer that can do a decent spin. Trying to hand-wring a pair of trousers is a right pain.

One thing I think worth mentioning is that no matter how suitable you think the boat is at first, there always seem to be a few things you want to change or upgrade (or to repair) within the first few months, and a few of those might be expensive. So keep at least five thousand in reserve for that sort of stuff. E.g. if the boat doesnt have solar panels, you will want to add at least 500 watts, and preferably 1000 watts. That means you will have all the electricity you need for your cruising months, without having to run the engine to generate power (although you may still want to run the engine to heat up the water). A lot of the solutions to these questions will depend on your cruising pattern, and so it might help if you can give us some idea how many days each week you would normally cruise? Some people cruise almost every day, some cruise once or twice a week, and some cruise the minimum required, which is once every two weeks. The significance of this is that it indicates how often you will be getting the engine to recharge your batteries. For example, if you expect to be cruising on most days, then you will not need much solar power, because all your charging will be done from running the engine to cruise. If you like to stay in one place for a week, then maybe solar panels will be more useful- although you still need a way of heating water. I can say that if you have 1000 watts of solar panels, that will give you enough power that you can run your fridge etc, but you can also heat a tank of water up to washing temperature between say May and the end of August, except on the really cloudy days. If you have diesel CH, that has a side benefit of heating the water tank, so on those chilly Autumn mornings when you want a to take the chill out of the boat by running the CH, you'll also have hot water (and actually, diesel CH might be a good system to consider installing if you buy a GRP- but it wont be cheap). But many owners of smaller boats use generators to create electricity, so that is also an option- although I dont think you'll get hot water from a genny- and you will need some hot water. If you are prepared to consider GRP boats, you'll need to bear in mind that the typical outboard motor is not set up for generating power to charge batteries, so some work might be needed to upgrade that. Although some GRPs do have gas-fired instant hot water systems, which is great. So you can see that there are no simple answers to the questions really- and the answers that best suit you will depend on your pattern of cruising. But in my opinion there is a bottom line to it all, which is this- to live comfortably you will need to generate around 100Ah of power each day, and 20-30 litres of hot-ish water every day or two, to allow you to stay at least tolerably clean. The optimum way to obtain those things will depend a lot on your cruising pattern and the type of boat you have. E.g. If I was on a GRP, I'd be looking at installing an instant hot water heater powered by gas, and I'd try to use that to heat up some bathing water. But on a narrowboat, I'd have a few other options. I could use solar panels for that job- at least for 6 or 7 months of the year (and aided by lithium batteries). But if the batteries are too expensive or complicated, you can just run the engine for an hour each day, and that will give you hot water and some charge for the batteries.

Are yours this type? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Display4top-Electric-Portable-Compact-Capacity/dp/B078QJMSVC/ref=sr_1_3?crid=P8S8S3OLY831&keywords=portable%2Bwashing%2Bmachine&qid=1700590993&sprefix=portable%2Bwashing%2B%2Caps%2C885&sr=8-3&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.23648568-4ba5-49f2-9aa6-31ae75f1e9cd&th=1 I have the single tub type, and nothing I've done has made it spin clothes even half decently, although the wash is ok. I'm sorry, but it's hard for me to imagine that a flimsy, thin plastic product with a very low power motor can spin clothes more effectively than a solidly-built, full sized domestic machine with far more sophisticated mechanicals and load-balancing functions. Do you have a link to the ones you have? If they really are that good I will be having a look at them myself.

The glowing youtube reviews I watched failed to mention that some of those small/portable washing machines do not spin very well at all. In fact I can do a better job by hand wringing my clothes after a wash, so I would advise buyers not to have high expectations about that aspect. On a small boat I'd be tempted to use a collapsible bucket or large bowl to wash clothes, and save some storage space.

I can't deny that the risk of damage to a GRP from narrowboats etc is something that would concern me, which is why I mentioned I've been hit three times this year alone- although to be fair, all three impacts were in the same spot within a week, when moored very close to a blind bend, so I was asking for trouble there really. And you are quite right to point out the extra hassle of obtaining petrol supplies, as most Marinas dont sell petrol, so you'd have to fetch fuel from nearby garages. That said, some of these Vikings do have inboard diesels, and you can buy diesel outboards too, so there is a way round the fuel problem- but it might come at a very high price (a yanmar D27 diesel outboard is over £10k new). All that said, you do see lots and lots of GRPs surviving on the canals, so people can make it work.

Since you can manage with diesel CH until the end of Oct, you don't really need a SF stove- although if we have a chilly October I bet it would be a nice thing to have available. In my view, a washing machine is desirable but not an essential priority, and especially not on a smaller boat. You can handwash smaller things in a bowl, and make occasional visits to nearby launderettes for bigger things like bedding. An awful lot of the suggestions will be down to individual taste or perspective- e.g. those people saying an engine room is essential probably have longer boats in mind. But if your boat is 45ft or less I am guessing that storage space will be a higher priority for you than easier access to do engine maintenance. I would definitely consider a boat of 45ft or less if I had a house available to store tools, clothes, and other paraphernalia. You can moor in smaller spaces, and you'll pay a fair bit less for license and mooring charges with a smaller boat. One option I would give some thought to is that of a GRP ('glass fibre') boat. Often they are more spacious than you might think. E.g. the viking 32cc is only 32ft long but has almost as much interior space as a 45ft narrowboat (which includes a centre cockpit area that would be great for Spring/Summer use). With GRP you dont have to worry about a rusting hull (although GRP can be damaged by impacts from other boats, and I've been bumped into 3 times this year alone), and there's a good chance you won't lose much money if/when you decide to sell it on and get a narrowboat. Also you dont have to pay £800+ or more every two years to have it hauled out and blacked. You can probably turn the boat around in far more places, without having to travel a few miles to a winding hole. The unexpected scary bills won't be quite as big as they often are with a full size narrowboat, and if the engine ever dies you can just buy a new outboard engine for a few grand and stick that on the back- whereas replacing the engine on a narrowboat can be £8k-10k or even more. I've never had a GRP, but if my circumstances changed to suit, I would give it really serious thought. As long as its reasonably spacious, warm, and comfortable, I don't care. Here's an example of their smaller model, the 26cc. I bet you could cruise April to Oct in one of these no problem. https://www.apolloduck.com/boat/motor-boats-aft-cabin-for-sale/747323 ETA- I must add that some improvements would still be needed for a boat like this- e.g. upgrade the water tanks from the ridiculously small 30 litres that it has at the moment.

If I've understood it right, you're looking for a reasonably knowledgeable person to come and have a general look over the boat, and check that all the systems seem to be working ok, so that you can decide whether its worth proceeding further with your interest? An expert like Tony Brooks would be able to tell very quickly if there were any significant issues with the boat, and there are several others on here you could trust to do a good assessment of a boat- e.g. Tracey. But not everyone will able/willing to travel to the boats location when you need them. I'm wondering if the easiest thing would be to get your man Dave Freeman to do a sort of pre-survey assessment, whilst its in the water? If you explain to him what kind of inspection you want doing, he may agree to take a look at it, but even that will probably set you back a couple of hundred. But bear in mind, normally you would make an offer that was 'subject to survey'. If the survey then reveals some significant issues needing repair etc, you can negotiate a price reduction from your initial offer, based roughly on how much if costs to fix the things found in the survey. So there is a sort of contingency within the buying process, to help you pay for unexpected issues that can arise with any boat purchase. And if anything really bad is found in the survey, you can just walk away. Because the lithium batteries are probably going to cost at least £1500 to replace if they are damaged, I would make my offer also 'subject to batteries and charging system being in satisfactory condition'. I would want to make sure that they were assessed before completing a purchase, and it may be Mr Freeman is able to do that as part of a survey. A specialist like Ed Shiers is also ideal for that bit- but because he's very good, he's also very very busy. Perhaps if you can share the general area of the boat (to within say 20-30 miles?), someone on the forum may even volunteer to come and do your initial 'once-over' check of the boat, if it turns out that Mr Freeman is reluctant to do that for some reason

I think you make a fair point, but for me personally, this is a matter of perspective. It could be argued that the market for gas-free boats is very limited at the moment, and there will not be a lot of interest in this boat. Most of the interest that exists will be from people considering installing gas. So at least to an extent, I think the price of the boat should reflect that situation- assuming that the seller wants to get a sale in a reasonable time. But if they are prepared to wait for a 'gas-free' buyer to come along, then yes- they could hold out for a higher price, based on your reasoning. So I think it partly depends on how willing the seller is to accept offers from people who are interested in installing gas- because those buyers will be viewing that boat with a significantly different perspective than a buyer who wants to be gas-free. And the perspective of those buyers does involve some degree of uncertainty and risk. To borrow your analogy, this might be similar to someone selling a house that has a septic tank, instead of being plumbed into mains sewage. That's a more extreme example, perhaps, but just as an illustration- this boat lacks two features that perhaps 90% of boaters currently consider to be pretty much essential (whether that is right or wrong is not the point I'm making). If the price of the boat does not make allowance for the risks associated with installing those two features, then many buyers will just walk away. You can see form the replies here- the vast majority have simply said: "walk away/why take the chance on it/find a boat that already has what you need" etc. My guess is that very few people will be interested in this boat, and that's one reason why I personally would want to build in a 'risk discount' of at least five thousand, unless there were other features that really drew me to the boat.

As I said, its a real pity you dont have a local expert to come and check the boat out for you- in all its aspects, not just electrics or gas etc. This is the general point with all boats of making sure that the stuff you are paying for actually works ok, otherwise you might have large bills afterwards to fix things. Also, I presume that if you press ahead with your interest, you would be getting a professional survey anyway, right? I would reiterate Ian's point about getting an expert like Ed Shiers to look over the lithium install, just in case there are any issues with any of it. I would definitely ask if there is documentation/details/receipts etc for the lithium and travelpower install. E.g. was it all done from new, or was it part of a DIY fitout by the owner? Many DIY fitouts are excellent of course, but its good to know either way. There has been talk that in a few years we may see new BSS regulations requiring lithiums to be installed by a professional (whatever that really means). That change may not happen- but if it does, you won't have to worry about it, as long as you have a document proving they were professionally installed. Also, was the travelpower new or used when it was installed? You might be able to knock a few quid off the asking price here or there with those sort of details. Which reminds me, it's been said on here before that if the fitout is done by the owner, they are responsible for getting an RCD certificate for the boat- so you should probably ask to see that, if there is one. But again, that would go for any boat. People seem to view the RCD certificate differently in terms of its importance, but its worth knowing if there is one. And if not, you can take it from there, e.g. maybe negotiate a further discount. No matter whether you've got reliable quotes for the gas and stove installs, if I were in your shoes, I would only consider this boat if the price is right. For me personally, the cost of the boat plus the cost of the additional installs needs to be at least £5k cheaper than an equivalent fully equipped boat of the same age, quality, and condition- and preferably more than 5k. I think you should be getting a bit of a 'risk discount' with this one, because you are taking a chance that the installs will both go as planned and on budget, with no snags/delays. Also ensure the quotes are fixed, not 'subject to having a closer look'- and get them in writing. They should include making good any damage to cupboards/walls etc that might be done by the installs, and leaving the boat interior as it was. It sounds obvious, but the guy who did my stove was about to walk away leaving exposed bits of woodwork that had been half ripped out to make space, until I reminded him that his quote covered everything being made good after the stove install. Minor details can catch you out- e.g. my SF stove quote included a chimney that would have come out of the roof at a slight sideways angle, which I think looks a bit rubbish. So I had to add on more money to get the chimney/collar adjusted so that chimney was vertical. You might end up with a boat you really love at a great price, and with a brand new SF stove and gas cooker, which all sounds great. But its equally likely you'll have some unforeseen snags and have to fork out a few more grand before its all done the way you want it- so you should go into it aware of the risks, and with enough fall back funds to deal with unexpected snags during the installs, or new fixes that might be spotted as you find out more about the boat. There are many other points to think about when buying any used boat (surveys, offers, the overall process, hull condition, recent blacking, engine service records, you name it)- but its one step at a time I guess. One of the next steps if you proceed will be to ask here for recommendations for DEFRA compliant stoves. Getting the right stove is a whole other question!

Alas, another boater falls into the ways of sin and devilry. It is not too late to save your immortal soul my son- but you must recant from the evil thruster and return to True Boaterhood.

Apologies if I've misunderstood, I am almost completely ignorant about electronics- if you are asking whether my alternators still have their original regulators, that's a yes. The engine is a canaline 38, of 2015 vintage. I have no clue about the mechanism, but as soon as the lithiums were connected, the alternators started working flat out, giving almost their maximum rated current, and overheated very quickly. It was very disappointing to learn that my 100 amp domestic alternator was not actually capable of producing more than 40 amps (at tickover) on a continuous basis, without overheating. In fairness it may be a bit more than that, because I'm not counting the current that gets absorbed by the lead acid battery- but that's not too great. I would have loved to get a big alternator with a clever external regulator fitted, plus one of those sterling units that protects the alternator by soaking up the excess charge when/if the lithium batteries are suddenly physically disconnected from the charging by the BMS. With that kind of setup, there is no need for parallel LA batteries and B2Bs, but for various reasons I didnt get that solution. Re battery life: The second hand lead acid battery that was connected to the domestic alternator 2 years ago is now starting to show signs of deterioration, which will probably be down to its role as a 'feeder' battery for the lithiums, and its charging regime is pretty poor. But for me, buying one new LA battery every few years is a price worth paying.

I still have one of each of those two units knocking around somewhere, as a sort of backup in case the victron units ever fail (although to be fair, you can buy those victron B2Bs on amazon with next day delivery). But I would be willing to sell them, so if your eagerness to investigate them is strong enough to part with a couple of hundred quid, you could get your wish. I am definitely a fan of the blue colour. The B2B units are configurable enough, and have the features I need, and they are now as cheap as many other units (and so far they seem to me probably better designed and better quality than most)- so for me, it was an easy choice to make. In my admittedly limited experience, I've found that when connected to lithium batteries, even with a lead acid 'feeder' battery in parallel, there is no problem persuading my alternators to put out their maximum rated current. In my case, I've found the challenge to be reducing (or at least controlling) the current output from the alternators- which is where the B2Bs do such a good job. .

Indeed- I found the victron B2B prices to be competitive enough that I bought three of them. And the Sterling unts are horribly ugly in comparison. But still, I used two of their 30 amp B2Bs for well over a year, and they performed faultlessly. I'm no lover of Sterling products after my own poor experiences with the BB1260 units, but I still think it would be worth at least looking at the new Sterling B2B units, they do claim good efficiency and it is possible they have learned lessons from the BB1260. But unless the Sterling B2Bs were significantly cheaper, I would go with Victron all day long. Why take the risk on Sterling, when you know there is a proven quality Victron product available?

The Sterling units also monitor the starter battery voltage, and they wont come on until the starter battery voltage rises above your set value. Or you can set them to come on/off with engine ignition. You can also set the starter battery voltage at which the B2B will switch off (for any B2B unit). So what I do is to set that switch off voltage threshold higher than the unit's default value. That means that the B2B is switched off within a few seconds of the engine being switched off, so it prevents the B2B sucking loads of charge out of the lead acid batteries. My starter battery is still in great nick after well over 2 years of this regime. ETA- most people will see this as overkill, but as we all know, alternators run cooler at higher rpms (up to a point). So what I also did was add a second 18 amp victron B2B unit, and I only switch that one on when I am moored up and doing an engine charge at a constant 1300rpm. That way I can squeeze an extra 18 amps of charge from the domestic alternator when I'm static charging. I cant use that second 18 amp B2B when I'm cruising, because when I get to locks, or pass moored boats, the engine revs drop to tickover, and at tickover the domestic alternator cannot put out 30 amps plus 18 amps without it getting hotter than I am comfortable with. So when cruising I use a 30 amp B2B on each alternator, and I can add in the extra 18 amp unit when static.

To be honest Mike, there will be several members here who know more than I ever will about the way these things work, but I can give a sort of layman's perspective after trying several different models of B2B over the last 2 years. My impression is that there is some variation in efficiency of different units, at least based on what I've been able to measure with my rather limited understanding of the technical detail. The least impressive in my view were the Sterling BB1260s. They take in 60 amps, and in my use of a pair of them over a year or so, I found they put out about 48 amps at most, which is a 20% loss. But even worse, every 15 minutes or so they would throttle back to very roughly half power (I think because they were getting too hot), and then they would put out about 28 amps. After about 10 minutes of this, they would then go back to 47 or 48 amps. So I would guess the average output over a day's cruise would be closer to 40 amps, which struck me as being a bit crap for a unit costing as much as they did. So putting aside the efficiency issue, I wasn't getting the consistent power output from those units that I was expecting. Now in fairness they do have some brand new B2B models that are claimed to be much more efficient, so I wouldn't write off Sterling without having a long hard look at those new units. The problem is they new ones seem to be pricier that the old BB1260's etc, so thats not great. The Sterling BB1230 takes in 30 amps, and I found mine put out about 27 or 28 amps for hour after hour, with no throttling down and less overheating- so that was much better, and they would suit a smaller/crappier alternator (of which I do have at least one). But the 30 amp units are not half the price of the 60 amp units, so there is a sort of 'bang for buck' question with those. I eventually settled on Victron 30 amp B2Bs. I dont actually know how how efficient they are as I've never measured the input current for them, but they do seem to put out a consistent 28 or 29 amps- although I must say the body of the unit gets so hot that you cant keep your hand on it for more than 5 seconds, (unless you're more macho than I am). So I imagine they waste some heat, but since they dont have a fan, maybe it feels that way because they keep their heat within the unit more than the Sterling units did. The Sterlings I think were much more more configurable than the victron units, and I did like the two 30 amp units, but the convenience of bluetooth control when you're at the tiller did win me over to Victron. As well as that sexy blue colour.

Nobody dares to say the L word when I'm around. Last time they got me going, it went on till 4am.

So you get it as well? The blokes in the pub are always trying to get me talking about Peukert. We're a pretty wild crowd.

Thanks for the heads up Peter, its worth knowing that this idea is not going to be an option. Tbh any ban on parallel Li/LA batteries is probably a few years away anyway (if it happens at all) as PeterB says- so there's no need to rush finding a solution. I can say the Sterling A to B charger is not the solution though. I had one, and after I installed the lithiums I found that the A2B did not limit the current to the lithiums in any way, and my alternator overheated.

If you look at the end of the video, he reattaches the charging cable and the alternator comes straight back to life, so it looks encouraging at least- but I would want to have a lot more assurance than a youtube video before I got one of them. Yes, I'm sure that's the sensible thing to do. I would really like to have a definite answer to the question of whether this device is good for repeated use, just in case parallel lead acids are banned even with B2B chargers. But such a ban, in the unlikely event that it happens, is still many months away. My ignorance here is going to make you groan, so I can only apologise, but how about this- could the live feed from the alternator be split into two directions? So instead of one cable going through a lead acid and thence to a B2B and lithium, instead there would be one cable feeding direct to the B2B, and another cable feed a lead acid? So the lead acid in that case is not in parallel, is it? But could it still act as a buffer for charge if the B2b was disconnected? I have a sinking feeling that if it were that simple, it would already be a thing- but its at least worth knowing why my suggested setup wouldnt meet the purported coming regs.

On that video it looks quite robust- he disconnects the live cable and the current falls to zero, then a few seconds later he reconnects it (just by touching, not securely) and the alternator comes back to life and is charging again. I think before I consider using one of these instead of a lead acid, I'll give Sterling a call and see how they feel about repeated use. Mine is a cheap alternator, but it would still cost £150 plus labour to replace, so I am a bit wary of fixing something that isnt broken and then having a problem. But for those who currently have parallel steups, using one of these might offer a solution that will be acceptable to BSS and possible future insurance requirements, so its worth having a look at it. What encourages me is that test was done when the alternator was putting out I think 160 amps, whereas my alternator would be putting out 50 amps at most.

Just another thought- I haven't got much of clue about electrics to be honest, but I believe Nick's suggestion of the Sterling alternator protection device would allow you to charge a B2B directly from the alternator, thus removing the need for a lead acid battery in parallel. To my ignorant eye that device seems a bit riskier than using a lead acid battery in parallel, but on the plus side it doesnt cost too much, and it would cope with the surge when the B2B switches itself off (or goes into float). I'm tempted to get one and try it out instead of replacing my failing lead acid battery, but one never wants to be the guinea pig in these situations- and especially not when one's alternator might need replacing if it all goes wrong. There's an old youtube video in which Sterling demo the thing, and tbh it looks pretty good:

I can only assume that if any type of parallel setup is banned (which to be fair, is far from certain), we will still be permitted to use the alternator controller method- but alternator controllers are maybe £500 or more, plus the cost of fitting- so its easy to imagine people paying £700 or more to get the job done. But tbh I personally am optimistic that B2B setups will be permitted. For me, the bigger worry is whether insurance companies or BSS are going to insist on 'professional' installation. Mine was done by two different companies, and added to by me, so its not a straightforward answer, and in any case I no longer have any receipts to prove it was installed by a pro. I can only hope that if a 'pro install' requirement emerges, it does not apply retrospectively. Ultimately, if they make it too difficult to have lithiums on board, I have the option of taking out the lithiums and buying lead carbons or something similar, and hopefully in a few more years the panic will have died down and I can put them back in place.

If I've understood it (which is by no means certain), there is a question mark over whether a B2B setup will still be acceptable under future regs, even when/if the direct parallel link via long wire gets banned. Is this the unit you were referring to? https://sterling-power.com/products/alternator-open-circuit-protection-device The way I'm imagining it is that after say an hour of engine running the B2Bs go into float, which stops the charging almost instantly. So the Sterling protection device soaks up the excess energy, and then the alternator effectively stops running for the rest of the cruise? The thing is, I have to keep one lead acid battery to act as a starter, so that will carry on as is. But for the domestic alternator, I could remove the lead acid battery, link the alternator directly to a B2B, and attach this protection device to the alternator? Its in a similar price range to a lead acid battery, and the lead acid battery that is fed by my domestic alternator is not in great condition. So maybe instead of replacing the lead acid as I was thinking, I can install one of these Sterling devices instead.