Paul H

And whilst we're praising Waterways World I had to mention how great it was to see a contribution from John Liley. IMHO The Best Waterways Journalist (apart from Richard of course!) Anyone who would like a flavour of how the canals were should read Liley's Journeys of the Swan, telling it how it was with wry humour. Hope Mr Liley becomes a regular contributor. Paul H

Well it obviously is not actually suited to the narrow canals but it might be worth investigating to see how accurate the measurements are. 2.15m would be much better than 2.2m! Also it might be possible to remove some fat rubbing strakes. There are still a lot of canals you could use. Obviously the wide ones but surprisingly also some of the narrow ones, particularly the branches of the GU, northern Oxford, Coventry etc. The Southern Oxford, Stratford, Llangollen, Huddersfierd Narrow and others will be impossible. However whilst some narrow canals will be passable this will be with difficulty as you will have to more fully open the gates than almost anyone else and there will be all sorts of silt and cack behind them which you would have to rake out. If you want to extensively cruise the narrow canals buy a narrow boat. If you are looking for a nice barge to live on or keep on a wide canal wiyth an occasional adventure on the narrow ones then it might be worth considering. Paul H

The Josher working boat is Lupin - one of the few to regularly go around without its cratch up. Don't know much abour Dawncraft though! Paul

Mind you it has to a wide lock if you have to find room for your boat and a butty. (Sorry) Paul H

Damn, you beat me. Yes I agree and yes it is Clee. Picture shows Ian Staple's fleet at probably its peak at Broadmoor Lock near Cropredy on the S Oxford.- not sure what boats he still has left. Lichfield was once a hotel boat operated by Katie Fforde now a best selling author ("Life Skills" has a canal theme.) Don't know its present wherabouts but it has been on ebay in the last year. Clee is in the Blisworth area. Do we know the present whereabouts of Poplar - still at Broadmoor? Clee and Poplar were amongst the boats rescued from the T and M flashes in Cheshire where they had been dumped by BW and left for 25 years. An attempt was made to burn off anything still poking out of the water which I suspect is the reason for the damage to the top bends. Paul H

Some quick measurements: 13 ins long, 4 3/8 ins high. Corners "cut off" by curve 1" high and 1.5 " wide. A bit difficult to explain but if you have seen one, you'll understand. B C N 1 1/8 in high, numbers 1 7/8 high. They were certainly made in imperial rather than metric! Hope this helps. Have a look at the other thread "unknown boat" for a pic of Dane's plates. - hope this helps! Paul H

Well no but I do have an original which I have used as a blank to have replicas cast. I originally did them for my ex-steamer Marquis but have gone on to do others a as well. Obviously they all have the numbers appropriate to the particular boat. The last ones I did were for the restored Shroppy Fly Boat "Saturn" and I think they were fitted when the boat was at Ellesmere Port over Easter. So the fact that they are used on such an important heritage boat shows they are pretty convincing. Paul H

First boat is the ex-Thomas Clayton motor tank boat Dane which moors at Langley Mill. The pair of working boats are Ascot and Beverley which can often be seen carrying coal on the GU. Any more? I like a challange. Paul H

I don't know the Acton Bridge area at all but they might be boats owned by Ian Riley in which case the motor is probably the knobstick boat Spain and the butty could be ex-FMC Hettie. Just a guess - could be completely wrong but I know he is in the Northwich area somewhere. Any thoughts Carl? Paul H

I've just checked with the owners of the private NB Holly which moors at Bugbrooke Marina just north of the tunnel. They went down to Stoke Bruerne on Saturday and returned yesterday. I think we can safely assume it was them that Denis spotted. There's a lot of Hollys about! "Keep 'em peeled" as they used to say on Police 5! Paul H

Good looking tug on Ebay here Has a rather bizarre fit out which a buyer might want to rip out but what particuarly horrified me was the solid fuel stove "installation." - see picture on Ebay. Can it really have a BSC? Well yes as it was obtained in 2005 and still has 2 years to run. Presumably the stove and goodness knows what else have been done since it was last inspected but it rather makes the whole safety scheme a bit of a joke, doesn' it? Or is the BSC now invalid due to the fitting out which has taken place since? Nice to see there is a non-inflammable base for the stove to fall on once its burnt through the cupboard though. Paul

Further to my partially incorrect info yesterday, I believe the big Woolwich butties which have been cut up are Branksome, Bayswater and Ayr/Berkhamsted - 3 in all. As to the fate of the big Northwich motors, Hairy-neil gives a very comprehensive breakdown but I would add the following: Tipton was also cut down for maintenance Usworth is back to Usworth and is the shortest of the lot at 33ft. Kelso actually became the hire boat Water Vole. Water Buck was the zoo waterbus Perseus. Kelso and two other boats Gorse and Anthony were all cut down at Bulls Bridge in 1959 and the bows used to make BW hire cruisers. The sterns ended up on Cowley Tip (now Packetboat Marina) and Willow Wren Hire Cruisers bought the remains of Gorse and Anthony to make hire cruisers out of in 1964. I think it is safe to say they left the remains of Kelso because with its higher sides it was less attractive for their purposes. I used to own Gorse so I did a bit of research. I think Ladybank is now deconverted. Undercloth conversions can be very successful on some boats - Town Class and presumably Carl's boats offer atmospheric cabins and generous headroom but having recently been on a similarly converted little Northwich with much less headroom it really was quite claustrophobic. There is also always the problem of where to put your chimney - if you are doing any serious crusing you want it through the top plank or as close as possible and then it doesn't half get in the way. As to the value of boats like Battersea, I know that it would cost much more than £90K to replicate the same boat today to the same standard and given time the right buyer might come along with enough money but it is a very small market. I have always found it interesting that when someone is having a boat built/restored/converted they are prepared to pay far greater sums than if they were buying a pristine boat "off the shelf" secondhand. I don't actually think this is anything to do with the relative value of new and secondhand or whether or not it is to their precise specification (most end up to all intents and purposes with a similar layout.) People seem to enjoy (and I have been there myself) the feeling of commissioning a craftsman and feel they are part of the creative process. I am sure there is a Freudian explanation. I have seen a boat a year or two old in "as new condition" advertised for £85K when it cost £140K to build. But when it comes to our hobbies we're all mad. Paul H

Whoops, yes you're right - my brain was obviously limiting itself to Town Class towns! I would be delighted if there were serious plans to restore Belmont after what must be 30 years of dereliction. As I am sure you know, Michael Streat of Blue Line considered that Belmont was in more urgent need of replacement that the wooden Raymond and Lucy - and that was in 1970! Maybe they could break it up and "restore" Belmont with all new steel round the old knees <G> Paul H

To fill in the gaps: Dunstable has a steel conversion and has just been sold on Apollo Duck. Barrhead is converted with a rudimentary motor conversion and is being worked on at Brinklow Belmont is in shocking condition on dry land at an open air museum at Coleshill I think 3 big Woolwich butties have been cut up. Astraea, Branksome, Ayr or Berkhamsted (opinions vary over the last's identity) spring to mind. I saw Battersea being converted at Brinklow (with an underloth steel conversion) and it was very tastefully done indeed. IMHO, it has ensured that the boat is well maintained rather than neglected and ironically the back cabin and engine installation are rather more authentic than certain preserved boats I could mention. The pity is that it catapults it into a price band that is out of reach of most real boat enthusiasts. Although I am sure we would all to see all the historic boats deconverted and in trading trim there are only a limited number of enthusiasts willing to put up with the privations of living in an 8ft shed. There are always some shining examples at boat rallies, butny more mouldering away through lack of use. At least a conversion ensures that they are used and maintained Paul H

Well the sago obviously does continue... Appalling Duck has Cragdale for sale. But we obviously have missed a chapter ot two! Anyone know the story? Paul H

The confusion is there were two Brentford docks! The Brentford Dock which closed in 1964 was built by the GWR as an interchange basin with the Thames so that Thames lighters could tranship their cargoes in to railway wagons and vice versa. It is now an upmarket marina and housing develoipment. As far as I am aware there was never a direct connection with the canal. Thames Locks at the start of the Grand Union give access to the former British Waterways wharves and warehouses which were still in use well in to the 1980s or early 1990s. Most stuff latterly came and went by road but lighters still came in off the Thames and Roses limejuice was loaded on in to narrow boats until as late as 1982 for onward carriage to Boxmoor. I think lighter traffic was still quite heavy (ho ho) until the 1970s and with only a small operating "window" either side of high tide, as many lighters had to be passed in or out in about 2 hours as possible so dualing the locks was probably a good investment. It is a while since I've been down there but I understand much has now been redeveloped but there is a fight to retain what is left. Paul H

I don't think there was always such a hard and fast rule. Horseboats used to pass, assuming local cargoes mainly went in one direction with the loaded boat nearest the towpath and the empty boat "holding out" so that it was easier for the empty boat to pass it's tow line over the loaded one which would be lower in the water. I also remember hearing that at one time in some areas it was the convention to pass on the left (Trent and Mersey?) which must have been fun for visitors. Once the standard layout of the working boat had evolved, with the stove and chimney on the left it became natural to keep to the right to avoid knocking off your chimblee on branches and bridge arches. That's what I think anyway. Paul H.

Just saw this and thought it could be just what you're looking for BSP http://www.vcmarine.co.uk/boatsels/deepjoy.htm Imagine it will go quickly. Plenty of room for loose furniture! Paul H

It is actually a replica of the Blisworth Tunnel tug Spider. This replica was built by Eric McDowall who used to work for Threefellows Carrying on the limejiuce and then Thurnaston gravel traffics. It was later used as the official boat to reopen the Blisworth Tunnel after the long closure and rebuilding in the 1980s. No idea why the original boat should have had such an odd bow though - perhaps it was meant to double as a icebreaker. You are right - there is another similar boat Pilot. Refreshing to see something different isn't it? Paul H

Strictly speaking, only the ones built by long-time builders Joe Worseys! And no, I am not suggesting you did anything wrong. The guy arrived with the wrong attitude from the start. Paul h

We all get a bit precious about this these days. I believe the universal term narrow boat is of quite recent usage. LTC Rolt used it as the name of his book and the usage spread from there. He nearly called his book "A Painted Ship" which would have been interesting if the name had stuck! In fact most old boatmen I ever talked to - just called them "boats". Down London way the term "monkey boats" was used and down the Severn "long boats." Over most of the midlands it was simply boats - why would they have said "narrow boat"? Narrow compared to what? And sorry carlt when I have talked to old Birmingham day boat men (what we would now call joeys) many of them - horror of horrors - called them "barges." We tend to think that the term barge is somehow derogatory these days but the majority were a lot more elegant than the modern narrow boat. Paul H

Yes but my point - perhaps made rather badly - was why make the space for the air in the first place? Just make the hull 6 inches shallower rather than create a space to fill with "ballast-neutral" water. Or to put it another way - why not leave the bottom off the water ballast tank - the only difference in the weight of the boat would be the weight of the aluminium skin you had removed. And guess what - your "ballast" would become part of the canal the boat was floating in. I'm waiting for DHutch to get off lectures - think his physics is likely to be more fresh in his mind than most of us. Wasn't it Archimedes who leapt about naked when he launched his Sea Otter. Or am I getting confused? Paul H

Yes I understand that but I cannot for the life of me see why the water "ballast" would make the boat heavier when floating in water. Paul H

Was that knee new when you were built or were you the second or third rebuild using a recycled knee? Paul H (attempting some wooden working boat humour)

The thing that has always intrigued me with Sea Otters is that one of their "design features" is a double-skin bottom containing water "ballast." As the whole point of ballast is to make a boat lie deeper in the water then the weight of the ballast presumably has to be heavier than the weight of the water is displaces. I know I did physics O-level a long time ago but I don't think this has changed surely - or am I missing something? Why don't they just put a solid double thickness bottom on and save a bit of draught? Paul H