Paul H

Tracing the history any boat that spent time on the BCN is never easy as I found when researching my old boat Marquis. The tugs were never registered and seldom gauged and boats were often sold for a handful of cash or lost in a card game. There was also talk of names being switched around perhaps to dodge tolls/licenece payments. I had not previously heard that Caggy Stevens had ever owned Usk - I thought it had gone straight from Claytons in 1964 to the Walsall Youth Organization. However I am pretty sure that Caggy never owned President. The boat we now know as President was bought in a derelict state at Northwich by Malcolm Braine from BW in 1973. It has been documented and photographed as a maintenance boat on the Macclesfield canal since 1953. However the problem is that FMC sold President in 1946 - it was never nationalised. President (now fitted with a diesel and shorter cabin ended up with a coal company called George and Matthews in Birmingham and was guaged for them in 1946. The theory/rumour is that G&M got in to financial difficulties and BW siezed the boat in lieu of tolls. Why then they would take an old boat from the BCN to Gorton Dock on the Macc and refurbish it when they were disposing of newer boats is beyond me. There are a lot of appealing conspiracy theories around President and many people are tempted to believe them. When I have talked to people at The Friends of President and David McDougal ex- Black Country Museum they swear that President had hull fittings (like the distinctive row of condenser holes) when originally restored. These have now long disappeared after a couple of rebuilds to the stern part of the hull. If photos were produced then everyone would shut up because it would prove President was a steamer - although it could still be Sultan or General. If not then it is just as likely to be a Josher motor boat like Lotus which was based in the NW but has since disappeared which some local maintenace guy renamed President perhaps in memory of some family connection. Lotus was only built 5 years after the President so the hulls wouldn't have been that different. All fascinating stuff. As for Usk I presume you have talked to Andy Matthews and Laurenec Hogg. Paul H

As far as I know this is a narrow boat - one of several taken to the Basingstoke canal to convert in to houseboats by a businessman trading as Floating Homes. There is an interesting short film or at least stills here which tells the story. Search under "Basingstoke" then go "New Barges for Old." Of course as they were never expected to move again no attempt was made to stop the sides spreading out and the superstructure (as can be seen on Jester) overlapped the gunnels - in itself meaning they were over 7ft wide. Of course it could be a one off wider boat but I doubt it. A "hampton boat" from Birmingham which were built oversize for the lockless Wolverhampton level would probably have been too long to get there. Paul H

Well I make that 68 so that's either 4 or 6 missing (or possibly 11) depending on who you ask and whether boats moored nearby (like carl's) are included. Adamant Arcangel Atlantic Barrow Bream (stern end) Brighton Buckden Callisto Camel Casseopeia Clematis Columbia (stern end) Corona Cyprus Darley Denebola Dodona (bow end) Dover Empress Enterprise Gambia George Gifford Gorse Gosport Grange (bow end) Grimsby Hadley Hyperion James Loader Jubilee Kangaroo Kildare Lamprey Laplander Lupin Madeley (bow end) Malus Manchuria (bow end) Marquis Mary Minnow Monarch Nuneaton Nutfield Olive Panther Pelican Plover President Raymond Renfrew Rudd Saltaire (bow end) Scorpio Sculptor Skylark Stamford Star Stour Swallow Sweden Tarporley Thea (bow end) Tug No 2 Vesta Vulcan Warbler Paul H

Well we're nearly getting there.... Don't think Anne was there. Yes it was Saltaire's bow. Bit confused about the BW herritage boats now. Thought I saw Scorpio and Leo but it may have been Scorpio and Malus - or maybe both pairs were there. Anyone know anything about a bad collision on Sunday afternoon at the ladder bridge? Paul

Well, I didn't do a list and with terrible weather and so many boats (moored 6 deep on the mainline) it was more than normally chaotic. From memory I have come up with 60 that were there. Not bad given the number of brain cells I have lost over the years. So there are 12 or so others - which ones did I miss? Adamant Arcangel Atlantic Barrow Bream (stern end) Brighton Buckden Callisto Camel Clematis Columbia (stern end) Corona Cyprus Darley Denebola Dodona (bow end) Dover Empress Enterprise Gambia George Gifford Gorse Gosport Grange (bow end) Grimsby Hadley Hyperion James Loader Jubilee Kangaroo Kildare Laplander Leo Madeley (bow end) Manchuria (bow end) Marquis Mary Minnow Monarch Nuneaton Nutfield Olive Pelican President Raymond Renfrew Saltaire Scorpio Sculptor Skylark Stamford Star Stour Sweden Tarporley Thea (bow end) Tug No 2 Vesta Vulcan Warbler And yes I did have my anorak with me - it was p***ing it down! Paul H

Hi Ewart, Have you talked to Matthew Cooper at Canal Transport Services at Norton Canes? My brain cells aren't what they were but somehow I associate his father Dennis (now retired) with a boat of this name. Although some boats were re-registered on the BCN particularly when they had a cabin added or removed it seems unlikely that the number would have been quite so similar for a re-registerd boat. 2226 and 2245 would suggest boats registered months apart and therefore different boats. The BCN Society, HNBOC, Waterways Trust and Lawrence Hogg all I think hold copies of BCN registers but they are not all identical as registers held by various guaging stations were annotated by local staff - so you should look at more tahn one. Also if you are not already a member of the HNBOC you should be. They hold information on your boat and in their published 1999 survey also associated the names Black Witch and Oliver with it. I presume you have also talked to Pete Harrison who holds a database of 1000s of boats - if not, PM me for his e-mail address. Hope this helps and tells you at least something you don't already know. As you have found (as I did with my old tug Marquis) boats which were not used as dwellings and therefore not on the public health registers are much more difficult to research. Paul H

Hi Andy, Well in the absence of any replies from the north, I will say yes I understand it is the one and the same Elland. The boat has quite a distinctive bow and there is one poking out from behind a modern working boat at Braunston Bottom which looks similar. Is this Elland? I should be up there for the rally (now without a boat grrrrr) on Sunday so will try and get a picture. Will you be there? Paul H

Yes Mike was a good boatbuilder, middle market but way ahead of his time. He also trained Gary Gorton and GT Narrowboats and I also think was also related to Tim Tyler - the dynasty has been chronicled several times in Waterways World. He then diversified in to hotel ownership, got into financial difficulties and ended up fabricating shells for Evans and Son. And yes sadly died young. He was building boats over quite a long period and specification will have varied considerably - I doubt if the early ones were 10/6/4 and now being quite old boats its going to depend on how they have been looked after. HTH Paul

I think the bow of this boat is the former stern end of a a Birmingham day boat. Whether it is a Bantock or not is hard to say. An original 70ft double ended boat was cut in half at some stage and the other guy got lucky with the better end. Paul H

There's a world of difference between a Norton Canes or similar top end narrowboat and a bog standard "budget" Liverpool/New Boat Co shell - and it's not all about welding. The time getting the shape just right, the false rivets (if you must) in the right place and carefully grinding everything off smooth comes of course at a price. But in 5 or 10 years time when there are hundreds of clone craft coming on to the market secondhand they may well prove a worse investment than one of the thoroughbreds. Its like a Morgan car - a bigger outlay but in the long run a hell of a better investment than a Ford. And isn't it funny that if you buy cheap you buy a "shell" - what makes it a "boat" seems to be more to do with the kitchen and electrics than anything else. With a "proper boat", preferably a working boat replica with a trad engine, owners seem to enjoy it as a "boat" from the word go even if they're camping out inside and its still in primer. My thoughts anyway. Paul H

I have heard that Chris Collins (the restorer of Albert) is still "at it" with various other wooden boats including the ex-GUCC widebeam boat Progress. Apparantly he has a millionaire benefactor (where do you meet people like that?) so is able to work carefully.... and very slowly. He is based up the (private) Troy Cut at Rickmansworth. Anyone know anymore? Paul H

As I said earlier in the thread - 20 years ago she was an exhibit on dry land in Trencherfield Gardens which I think is near Wigan Peir - I don't know the area at all. I suspect Roland has long since disintegrated as boats out of water are prone to do or been torched. Roger - I'll get the article off to you later this week. Paul

Not a link because it was a magazine article and Waterways World doesn't have an online presence. I think you're thinking of the website Narrowboatworld. But if you're in the Wigan area - can you confirm whether it is still in Trencherfield Gardens? If you PM me with your address I can pop a photocopy of the 1988 article in the post if you'd like. Paul

There was an article in Waterways World in November 1988 (I've got an index as well as an anorak!) which charted its restoration from a pile of kelson and ribs in to a beautiful restored wooden L&L short boat. Unfortunately it seemed destined as an ornamenatal piece in the middle of Trencherfield Gardens, Wigan. I wonder if it is still there and whether the last 20 years has been kind to it. Paul

I didn't say don't bother, just be aware of the pitfalls and learn from the mistakes of others. Yes there are boats Renfrew amongst them which are run by a handful of friends and Raymond is being looked after for now but there are many others over the years like Bargus, Autherley, Stirling, Almighty (at one time) and Jupiter (which sunk and was broken up)which haven't faired so well in joint hands. As you say the jury is very much still out on the WCBC. I stand by what I said. In general private preservation has been more successful than those by organizations mainly because they cannot keep up the momentum. This is not just my view but one I hear at traditional boatyards who get very depressed by the neglect and misuse of the boats they have carefully and expensively restored. And how long does the restoration particularly of a wooden boat last? In the period of my enthusiasm for canals Gifford has been restored 3 times! Old boats need constant attention, bilges pumped, roofs mopped, scuppers kept clear of leaves, engines turned over, sheets tightened etc. Sadly this all too often neglected on boats run by organizations. Paul

Perhaps I can toss my two penny worth in at this rather late stage. Your intentions are laudable and there are many boats out there worthy of sensitive preservation. My worry is that the story of many restoration organizations have not been happy ones. The problem often is not the restoration bit particularly since the advent of lottery grants but the preservation afterwards. The museums particularly those controlled by the Waterways Trust and the Black Country and Birmingham Science Museums all have boats which seem stuck in a cycle of expensive professional restoration followed by years of amateur neglect. There have also been over the years a number of private schemes involving shared ownership of historic boats and most have failed - The big Woolwich Fulbourne being a noteable exception. The truth is that it is difficult to maintain the enthusiasm amongst volunteers and maintenance often gets left to someone else with the result that nobody does it. It is also far easier to raise funds for restoration than maintenace which will inevitably be a heavy cost for an historic boat. Also there are really not enough of those enthusiast to go around. I am not sure about the current status of the Friends of the Working Boats but I do know that the Narrow Boat Trust and Friends of the President have a constant struggle to find crews and people to help out on maintenance. The NBT keep their boats going but they never look as smart at rallies as some of the private boats. So I think its worth considering whether a new restoration scheme would simply spread the limited supply of enthusiasts and resources more thinly. There are simply not enough people seriously interested in historic canal boats compared with the railway world. Owning a steam loco is not really a realistic ambition but their own historic canal boats are an offordable option to a great many people. A bit negative I know but HTH. Paul H .

I originally pointed out that a new company had been created to reassure people that quality boatbuilding appeared to be continuing. However I nor anyone else on this group has any knowledge about the circumstances of the demise of the old company. It could have been through a ruinous legal dispute, a private investor/family member wanting his money out/an attempt by HMG to recover VAT not previously charged on a residential boat. We just don't know. Barry Hawkins was not a fly by night company. I haven't heard of any customers out of pocket. I know if I was faced with closing my business or saving it and saving jobs by starting up again I know what I would do. The creditors of the previous company have lost anyway. There is many a respectable company - I think the two major high companies on the canals amongst them - who have been down the same route. Yes there are crooks around but a far greater number of unlucky/inept businessmen. Paul H

A new company Barry Hawkins Boatbuilders Ltd was formed in March. Paul H

Hi Viv, Well quite a few. I can think of Australia, Fazeley, Gosport, Ipswich, Keswick, Longton, Northolt and Upwood (Kerry). There are probably others. Narrowboat magazine is doing a two parter on FMC and lists surviving boats. They're up to J so far. Incidentally I don't thing Yarwoods actually built any FMC butties although confudingly they converted 12 Saltley butties to motors. Hope my old boat Marquis is being looked after and you find a good home for Grimsby! Paul H

I suspect it is a replica. The sides look uncharacteristically smooth and I cannot see any rivets. Also if you look at the chap at the front of the boat in the orange T-shirt (as opposed to the other one crouching down) he looks a bit out of scale. I suspect theerfore that it is also only about 10ft wide. Paul H

It's a sop to the trade who BW want to encourage to invest millions in new marinas. Don't forget BW get 9% of all marina revenue (thats revenue not profit) so will not be worse off given that marina rates are generally rather higher. Also apparantly BW get more complaints about excessive online moorings than anything else. I would be surprised however if they ever get round to removing many moorings elsewhere in the country. Their stated policy for years has been to reduce online moorings but finacial pressures have meant otherwise. I think it is your bad luck for being so close to BW's honeypot Paul H

I still think scaffold poles are the way to go - depends how much you need but I would feel sure there's plenty lying around for the price of a "drink." Or try your local scrapyard. The problem with timber is you will never be able to drive them in far enough. Scaffold poles can be driven in 2ft by sledgehammer - but if you've got the mechanical means 3ft would be better - to withstand your boat surging against them everytime a boat goes past. You only have to look at other DIY wooden structures to see how inadequate most of them are. The right wood might be rot proof but without a piledriver you'll never get them in far enough and they'll collapse within a few years. You need to get them through the silt and in to something firm. I've just had to look up faggots - as the picture I had in mind was a bit disturbing. Paul H

This is part of a national policy and makes some sense. The hundreds of boats in marinas need somewhere to park when they go out for little day jaunts and with the explosion in online moorings in recent years there are less and less places to go. However I had assumed that this would only happen when a mooring fell vacant and it was not relet. Also a bit suspicious that the first heard of instance of this policy will benefit the moorers in a marina owned by - you've guessed it - British Waterways! Yes I know its their subsidiary BWML but that's splitting hairs. I expepct their 600+ moorers were giving them grief about all the nasty online moorers getting in their way. I should fight it. They'll back down, they usually do. Paul H

The best bet for cost/durability/easy driving would be scaffold poles as used in most marinas. Paul H

I don't think you will find any better value than Brenmarl's plates but also (if they are anything like they produced in the 90s) anything less like a BCN plate. They are or were unpainted brass with numbers in a standard foundry font - ver yvery different from the real thing. My plates are cast individually, cast from an original BCN plate with the patina of age and with numbers specially made to match the originals. They are then powder coated in black and the raised letters and outline picked out in white by hand. They are very convincing when screwed to a boat - the fact that the high-profile heritage boat Saturn has them says it all. All of this comes at a price though and a pair would cost £100 plus postage. So it depends what you want - you might prefer brass plates to polish! PM me if you want to discuss it further. Paul H PS I'm a purist but I'm not offended - I had had the same idea myself!