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Guten Nach Mittag volks. I had the German Pfizer Biotech vaccination last Fritag. After effects have been quite horrid. Dream't I bought rimless spectacles like Himmlers, but worst of all I have really frightening visions in my dreams of being in a concentration camp with Frau Merkel standing before me in full battledress, waving a wicked looking whiplash. Sieg Heil.

First weekend with absolutely no need to run the engine to charge the batteries and I was running the fridge. Welcome back my lovely solar

Like this thread I suppose

Glad to see my post was so good you quoted it twice ? Agreed that "they're all Li-ion", but normally this term is used for Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LCO) or Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) or Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (NCA). all of which share the desirable feature of high energy density with the undesirable feature of burning ferociously and almost unstoppably at a very high temperature if things go wrong like massive overcharging or a cell short -- these are what normally get lumped together as "Li-ion" from a hazard point of view, which insurers don't like. LiFePO4 (LFP) batteries are lower density and can be lower cost (which is why Tesla are using them for some cars in China) but are much safer, these are the only lithium batteries that anyone sane should be considering using on a boat ?

This poll won't pick up all the boaters who don't care either way. So it's hardly of relevance. Also, your poll is leading and skewed in its wording. The "(because they did in the past)" bit is especially problematic because it implies that's the only reason to vote that way.

I entirely agree with IanD that most genuine boaters object to s**t being placed in the general rubbish bins whether is is 99% or 90%. It is just something you don't do. If you have a composting toilet fine, but use it as intended and don't dump in in the general waste bin. This is all indicative of the increasing attitude on the waterways now that it's OK to do what ever you like providing you don't actually break the law. When I started boating so 50+ years ago we thought it a privilege to be able to use the waterways at low cost for our own pleasure. Sadly these days its always about the entitlement to do what one can get away with be it strewing everything on the towpath making a noise all day with a generator and so on.

Has anyone known anyone stopped in their car, if they're not heading towards a beach or beauty spot? I drive a fifty mile trip every week to support an ill friend, and sixty to my bubble, plus fifteen to the boat every few weeks. Never seen any sign of police activity. I suspect they have better things to do. Go to your boat with six people in the car and an "I'm on holiday" flag in the window and you might have trouble. And in the unlikely event of being questioned, explain why you think your journey is essential, waving Towpath Talk if you've got it. If the copper disagrees, accept his advice and go home. The rules say they advise first, fine later. Then go the next day.

Some fun guy...

Thank you to all who messaged with very helpful advice and info on this thread. You will be pleased to hear we made it to our moorings, beautiful day yesterday weather was kind, river levels were low and cogenhoe lock was open and working well. We are home...... ??

Thanks for clarifying that. I sometimes get misunderstood and misrepresented and misidentified. Among other misses this can cause quite serious issues so apologies if it seemed over the top but in this case I misunderestimated you.

I presume the poll is also "do you have a compost toilet or not" as those with one will want to use the facilities and those without one seem to not like them so wont.... I don't really have an opinion so said yes they should as i can't see the difference between compost and dog s**t .....

I think we need a discussion thread about this interesting subject.

Ah, you believed Nigel Farages lie did you. How would he be given access to confidential medical records? That's what he said, within an hour the Home Office had stated, yes, there were 12 new arrivals, but none tested positive.

I would say its massively skewed in order to garner the desired result.

Oh dear, I had that one on Friday as well. Lets hope I don't invade Poland next weekend. ?

He clearly meant normal with regard to dog poo. This 99% thing is a red herring. I'd say about 90% of boaters don't give a toss. It's you who's in a tiny minority of boaters who are all riled up by this.

I have neither a composting loo, nor a dog. What do I win?

LA traction cells are certainly big and heavy and need careful planning in to fit them into a boat, they're difficult to add on afterwards. The banks used by Hybrid Marine (24 x EPzS 775) weigh about a ton, and cost with auto topup and venting is about 5 grand... Charging by solar during the week (assuming big enough solar panels and enough sun!) and cruising at weekends does avoid the generator problem, also the long equalisation time. But this will need a fairly sophisticated and reliable charging system to charge and then absorb/equalise them while unattended, a week (or more) of overcharging would be disastrous... I do worry about people suggesting that using secondhand Li-ion BEV batteries on a boat is a good idea. When built into a car the BMS is designed/verified/guaranteed by the manufacturer, who has a huge incentive to do it properly (which means, not cheapskate -- the electrics are a typically at least a third of the cost of the car) because having them catch fire and burn cars out is bad publicity -- and the insurance companies are aware of all this and allow for it. They also make them in large volumes so any bugs in the system are likely to be found and fixed. Now consider people using these Li-ion packs second-hand on their boats with a DIY (or bought-in from bits) BMS, and doing it all on the cheap -- which means the reliability/fault-tolerance/protection/idiot-proofing is likely to be to a far lower standard than in a car, with very few of them out there to find any problems. And when things go wrong with Li-ion they go really wrong, putting out a battery fire is not for the faint of heart -- or even many (most?) fire brigades. Put all this together and I very much doubt than any insurance company would touch Li-ion on a narrowboat with a bargepole, unless it was a properly designed and installed system from a reputable commercial supplier who can demonstrate the same design/safety/regulation standards as Li-ion cells in BEV. Which costs an absolute fortune to do, and certainly wouldn't be the cheap solution that everyone is looking for. LiFePO4 is a different matter, these are *much* safer and easier to deal with. But almost all BEVs that these battery packs are coming from (Tesla, VW, BMW) are Li-ion because the higher power density is critical for cars...

The BW font from the 1972 BWB Waterway Environment Handbook.

When I had an Alde on Parglena it consumed at least a 19kg bottle every week? I had a flogas account and was getting gas at 50% discount through a bulk buy scheme. It was the first thing to go and be replaced by a Mikuni and the redundant space converted into a wine rack.

The problem with LA batteries is not just the charging time, it's the absorption time needed to get them up to 100% SOC and hold them there, which is needed to avoid sulphation. The Leoch PLC batteries (batterystore.co.uk are the cheapest UK source, are partnered with Leoch) have more data available under other labels they're sold under such as Outback (Australian). If you dig into their data sheets, maximum recommended charge current is 0.25C, with about 4h absorption time at 100% SOC. But they are sealed. However this is little real-world experience of them in boat applications because they're relatively new, and they fall into the same "neither fish nor fowl" problem as advanced AGM/cell cells -- they're a lot more expensive than traction cells (about 2x the cost) and still have a lot of the LA disadvantages, and if you're going to pay this much you might as well pay even more and use LiFePO4 and get huge benefits (fast charging, higher efficiency, no absorption to speak of) Traction cells (Tayna cheapest, or pbbatterysolutions?) are designed to be charged back to 100% overnight (>8h charging time) every night, and have similar maximum charge rates and if anything even longer absorption time. This is because they are very tall (typically a couple of feet) and rely on gassing at full charge to circulate the acid, and even then this takes a long time to equalise concentration over the full height. Which also means they *have* to be taken to the bubbling stage regularly to avoid sulphation, which is why fan extraction/venting is needed to prevent building up of explosive gases. Then you almost certainly need an automatic watering system to keep them topped up, which adds to the cost. Having said this, if you do all this (and can put up with the long charging/equalisation times) they're relatively cheap and do last a long time -- when I spoke to Hybrid Marine they said they've got boats out there (all parallel hybrids) after 8-10 years still on their original set of batteries, though obviously without knowing how much they've been used you need to take this with a pinch of salt. https://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/index.php/products/narrowboat Here's a source for BEV battery packs, much cheaper than new but still pretty expensive. https://www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/collections/ev-battery/Module Bear in mind that these are almost all Li-ion, which need *extreme* care with charging/discharging/protection because if things go wrong the consequences can be catastrophic (battery fires), and there may be consequences for boat insurance because of this -- an issue not often mentioned but I think everyone knows what insurance companies are like, if you don't tell them about the batteries they'll probably refuse any claim. I don't know if the companies who cover UK canals have much experience of Li-ion, but lumpy water companies do and they're very wary of them, especially with home-brewed BMS. I suspect this is the reason why none of the reputable builders of electric boats in the UK have gone down this route, they all use LiFePO4 (the ones who do a "proper job" i.e. an expensive one) -- the cheapskates use LA cells (PLC or traction) with all their disadvantages. The real problem with LA in an electric boat/hybrid where charging is usually from a generator is the long charging/equalisation times -- depending on charging rates, generator run time is at least 2x what you'd predict by dividing required charge by maximum charge rate (can easily be as much as 3x, especially allowing for round-trip energy losses), and for a large part of this time the batteries aren't accepting much current (and it's tailing off) so the generator is running well below full power, bad for efficiency -- as well as wasting fuel, long run times mean servicing is needed a lot more often. You also have to pay close attention to your battery charging regime, making sure to fully charge to 100% SOC and equalise regularly. In comparison LiFePO4 can just be treated as a power bank -- so long as you don't overcharge or overdischarge them (which is why a proper BMS is needed) they don't really care much what SoC they're at, have much higher round-trip efficiency, and need next to no equalisation or care and attention. The biggest bonus is having to run the generator for much shorter times than LA, which is pretty much the entire point of going electric/series hybrid in the first place. Unfortunately they do cost more ?

One of the Rolling Stones?

Try this one, I have no idea whats going on, even I cant see it now

Northern days, long ago, at Leeds, Leeds again, Knottingley and Goole,

Yes you can’t do it to faces anymore, it’s frowned upon.

old meme

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/cook2/

I've been stopped twice in Welshpool, coming from Shrewsbury, and Dyfed Powys Police have been regularly stooping people around Aberystwyth and in the Brecon Beacons. Both times my journeys were legitimate as I was transporting patients to and from hospital appointments.

Most boats have explosion proof 'bilge blowers' that you run for 10 minutes before starting the engine. At around £20-£30 they are not an expensive accessory to ensure that your bilges don't 'explode'. What Is A Bilge Blower On A Boat & What It's Used For! (bornagainboating.com)

As hydrogen is considerably lighter than air I would have though providing you organised decent engine room vents above the deck board level the hydrogen would naturally disperse. Any fan would have to be explosion proof or you would have to blow into the bilge so any hydrogen is vented through a passive vent. You would also have to take steps when working around the batteries to disperse any local pockets of hydrogen.

you do have a monkey in a pair of red wellies