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Perhaps if he actually finds a boatbuilder prepared to do everything he wants, and at a price he is prepared to pay, he will report back and tell us how it, all worked out. I'm not holding my breath, though! I feel justified in being this blunt, because he has managed to be very rude and ofensive to many people who took the posts at face value, and actually tried to help. I'm no longer going to try to contribute to a thread like this with an attitude such as we haves seen. I will genuinely try and help anybody, however naive, provided they demonstrate they genuinely want that help, but not if they are going to rubbish those who do make the effort.

A warning to others indeed... Ok, paint job complete, last work to do on the boat was "get the shower pump working because it always blocks and leaks". The offending pump is apparently one of the bilge pump in a sandwich box type so a Whale Gulper is the obvious choice. We also noticed that the boat has a paper sign taped across the bathroom sink saying DO NOT USE. Eventually the shower pump is located under the floor in the adjoining kitchen, in a 2 shelf cupboard, under the hob, and the cupboard holds 20 years of accumulated pots/pans and other kitchen detritus. A lovely small false bottom to the cupboard has been cut, however, it is still almost impossible for anyone other than a banned midget wrestling team to squeeze into the U-shaped space and attack the pump. The pump has lovingly had a hole cut in the floorboards to its exact dimensions, therefore pipes need to be removed before it can be pried out. So, the top shelf has to be taken out, after removing all the plates/jugs/serving bowls etc - all a lovely cabbage leaf style(I kid you not). The shelf is screwed, glued and nailed - some force has to be used. The lunchbox can now be attacked - but water can be seen around the piping, lots of water. Jubilee clips loosened, pipes worked off and wires detached, the pump housing is lifted out revealing almost 2" water - 200 plus litres taken out before the work continues. It is also found that the bathroom sink also runs into this lunchbox..... Off to by a Y connector - try searching screwfix using their search engine - we ended up with a garden shed base and a staple gun - so off to Midland Chandlers instead. The pipes have been installed with NO play at all, concrete slabs prevent moving them to allow easier fitting. Gulper eventually fitted and now we need a switch in the bathroom - obviously a pull cord - nicely wired into the original lunch box power supply rather than running new cables. Then the fuse blew. First the Gulper fuse, then the 12v panel fuse, Then another fuse. Tested the Gulper with a 12V battery, works ok. So into the back of the 12V panel, where I discover that everything has been wired correctly except for the power for the lunchbox - where red goes to neutral busbar and black to the switch - which the Gulper doesnt like. Swap them over, test, then put everything back together again. So this has been a far more complex job than the owners thought necessary, they were in today and saw what we were doing and the amount of water in the bilge, we will be cutting an access hatch at the rear - although now the pump has been changed - there shouldn't be a problem any more. So yes, jobs can take a life of their own, had the owners not been present, they would have had a call at the end of the day to explain what had taken place - not before as you would be calling them every two hours with your new findings...

Maybe they need to use more CAD to design the boats ...

There is a conflation of "Choose" and "Need" I choose to generate electricity and heat water using my engine. That comes with certain limitations that I must accept, namely that I can't do so between 8pm and 8am. If my needs for generating power and heating water cannot be accommodated within that envelope, I will need to make different choices for my power and hot water. I cannot simply choose to exempt myself from the rules, any more than I can choose to drive at 100mph because I need to get to work in a shorter time than driving at the speed limit will accommodate. Where an EXCEPTIONAL need has arisen (by which I mean an entirely unforeseen one-off need for engine running and the effects of not running the engine would have a serious detrimental effect) then I think we can all be sympathetic, but if the late running is "I work shifts, and don't get to the boat until 9pm" the boater has then made a choice that isn't actually available to him.

I noticed that Stenson / MCC boats were mentioned here's mine so people can get an idea of the underwater profile the rear swims end about 6 feet into the cabin and the front curves end about 3 feet into the cabin. it's a 45 foot boat but was originally planned as a 30 footer (we have the plans and a note on them saying "extend to 45 feet" the boat is lovely to handle and totally predictable although I do feel it would benefit from using a slightly larger prop. I will say that the longer swims & curves make a big difference to how much power the boat needs and it's maneuvering capability, we regularly travel with some friends who have their own 40 foot Clubline boat that has the same engine / gearbox / prop as our boat and they have to have their engine revs about 10% higher than ours to match speeds, also in places where our boat will spin round in one turn they will have to do a 3/5 point turn (with theirs being shorter you would assume it would be the opposite way round). edit : I see I'm being an idiot, this post was meant to be in the "what boat builder" thread, that'll teach me to have so many tabs open.

CaRT will be appointing a Director of Magnet Fishing soon on £100k a year and a department and staff. Responsible for licencing, promotion and going around restocking bridge holes with shopping trolleys, bikes and Luftwaffe bombs. Jen

I disagree. In this case people need to beware of a yard willing to estimate £90 and bill for £500 without telling the victim they are running so far over budget. I think this is unreasonable yard behaviour and naming the yard perfectly fair. Especially as the yard are aware of this thread and have not to put their side of the story, so far.

This is standard build quality for this builder. I would put money on the fact that there might be another picture tomorrow showing ......1. no blacking in bow thruster tube and 2. similar boatbuilding skills.? Your boat is somewhere it should be, room to move and others to move round you. The principle argument against wide beams on this forum is that they are not suitable for many of the narrow, shallow canals that they are currently invading.

Dunno, but I can't see the topic title with thinking "and fu**ing radiators!"

They seem to be becoming standard on hire boats. And without the silencer mentioned above. It is getting to be virtually impossible to be moored among other boats without some kind of engine noise. Sometimes I can hardly hear my damn trombone.

Precisely. It's called business. There are businesses that make quorn an inedible processed food. There are German car manufacturers turning out junk cars. Ridiculous televisions five feet across etc etc etc etc so the yards that turn these boats out obviously have a market.

Not a problem Mike I know what canal knowledge I have & am happy with that from my point of view he can carry on. So much with trying to be helpful at least most of whom he classes as stone age numptys have been there done that & obtained several "T" shirts

Within reason getting the for & aft trim wrong will only alter the boat's pivot point when turning although getting it badly wrong may make it difficult to handle. It is the center part of the hull that gives narrowboats whatever stability they have, not the swims so the longer the center part the less tender the boat will be. However the shorter the boat the greater the length of the swims as a proportion of the hull so shorter boats tend to sway about a lot more. Any off center weight should be counter balanced during the build by ballasting more on one side than the other so they trim with no list but naturally things like off center holding thanks will cause a small degree of list as they fill and empty. A well ballasted boat would have a small list one way when the said tank is empty and a small list the other way when full. Bow and stern mounted tanks do affect the trim but as you have probably read in other topics by not as much as you would imagine. Narrowboats do not go fast enough for centrifugal force to push the contents of the water tank to one side so liquid slopping about in the tanks normally has no noticeable effect on the boat and in any case the weight and thus inertia in the many tons of ballast would tend to damp any such movement of the hull. Your musings so far lead me to think that you will end up with a fairly tender boat.

No more than being a draughtsman is all about paper. The medium is pretty useless without the skill to understand what you are designing. JP

A quote is not the same as an estimate. Even if estimated, a huge cost differential like that, should have meant contact the owner first before starting work or stop work immediately and inform the owner of the extra costs.

Thanks to the people who run the Gardner Engine Forum for organizing this (free) event, I really enjoyed my visit. It was an excellent choice of venue in all respects. It was also very interesting to be shown round the bone mill whilst it was in steam - it must have been a hideous place to work in 100 years ago with the danger, the smells and the dust.

I respectfully disagree. The possibility that the OP might get a better deal on the next occasion they place themselves at the mercy of a boatyard in no way excuses the contractor in question or anyone else for that matter. Nor I suspect does it make the OP feel any better. There's nothing peculiar about the boating world that somehow allows contractors to play fast and loose with their customers hard earned.

I give up ….. how much does your boat weigh?

I don’t think anyone here is talking about the law... which is usually an ass anyway. We are talking about what is right... and what Roses appear to have done couldn’t be more wrong. I would imagine the Roses boss is reading this and biting his tongue until he can find out what went on, and who did it, before responding in some way. For all those who think a £90 estimate turning into a £500 job is OK without communication... at what point does it become not OK? What if the final bill had been £1000, or £5000?

Wellies could be worn by the operative, full of the salt'n'vinegar mixture. A doorman could be stationed at the Chippys door issuing clothes pegs for customers noses. Bless his little cotton socks, yuk!!!

You Can destroy the Foot Odour Bacteria ! get a Job Behind the Counter in a Chippy.you will be Sprinkling Salt and Vinegar onto the Chips lots of and some of it will spill directly on to your Feet! The Two Condiments mixed together form a mild Acid Solution which will Sterilise your Feet and keep a lot of Customers away and only the Desperately Hungry Ones will stick it out! If Salt and Vinegar will clean Brass it must be good for Tootsies?

We've only dealt with Rose Narrowboats once. We wanted a round 45deg corner trim in ash for the back of the pullman, and we dropped into Roses when we were passing, and asked if they could make one for us. The forman came on board, measured the 'curve' and said it would be ready in 2 weeks as it would be a job they'd shoe horn in somewhere - we never asked for a quote. True to their word, we got a phone call 2 weeks later to collect. The corner trim was perfect.... and all for the princely cost of £8! We thought it would be several times more than that. Guess you win some and lose some.... such is boating

We've heard about the pipes, but where did the electric power come from? A convenient local socket, or did a 240v cable have to be run specially? Bod

I seem to be in the minority, but my Colecraft's cruiser stern has drainage channels that actually work (provided the holes are kept clear, that is). Nevertheless, I do have a tonneau cover, but it only goes on over winter.

Very eloquent. However the opening post refers to people as "idiots" who run their engines/gennies without reference to hours. I try to use tolerance where possible, and commend it to others. Rog

If they fish the stuff out, it doesn't get collected from the towpath and gets thrown back into the canal, it could be worse for we boaters than if it had been left alone. Most of the stuff would have been in the canal for years and would have settled on the canal bed probably in the deepest part towards the middle but out of the way of our propellers. But there's a distinct chance that the newly thrown in stuff would be sticking up more and possibly in shallower waters nearer the edge.

It really is quite surreal, isn't it?.............. I know I'll be wasting some more of my life if I come back to it, but somehow I can't help myself! You truly still have much to learn!

Perhaps. (But it's still fugugly, though)

I don't consider myself hyper anything, but the OP is downright disrespectful. He needs to learn some manners imho.

I had a similar experience to this a few years ago when I asked a boatyard - again an entirely reputable outfit - to estimate for some work to the engine exhaust. There was a fair amount of cutting and welding involved and I thought the estimate was a bit conservative, but when the invoice arrived for fully twice the amount of the estimate I refused to pay. It was a slightly different situation in that the work that was done was exactly what we had agreed, what was different was the amount of time estimated to do the job. My argument was if you give an estimate the final figure should be reasonably close to it otherwise what is the point of getting an estimate? Also, at some point it would have been clear that the work was going to take longer so why was I not at least informed of this. In the end we agreed to split the difference ie I paid 75% of the final bill which is about what I was expecting anyway. I do think sometimes boatyards (attached to marinas in particular) assume that all boat owners are stinking rich unless you send out a very strong message to the contrary.

I'm at a loss to see why any cupboard dismantling was necessary or a skin fitting required. I'd have used a hole saw to cut three holes through the side or base of the cabinet then tee into the two pipes feeding the tap for the water supplies, then connected the waste hose into the blanked off connection available on the trap. All freely accessible from the photo in post 12. Whole job would take me about three hours, taking my time over it. Even adding an hour for drilling the skin fitting hole that's still only four hours. My guess is the fitter needed something from B&Q and took three hours for the trip to get it which gets us up to seven hours at £45 an hour. Maybe £70 materials. I'm still only up to £385.00. Something does not add up here. My gut feeling is the installer was feeing his way and didn't really know how to go about it, and the OP got charged for both head scratching time to figure out how to actually do it, AND the excess time it took to do it the awkward and expensive way.

Diesel engines and boating kind of go together. In all our years of boating I can recall only one occasion where I was truly 'disturbed' by engine noise, and that was a boat at All Oaks Wood, Brinklow, running a frame genny until 11pm. I assumed the boater needed to run it, and wasn't merely trying to annoy me. I moved on next morning. I chose to moor in a popular spot with other boaters, I have to accept the community. I like to moor away from others, but my natural animal magnetism seems to attract people It always seems a shame when people refer to other boaters as 'idiots' as the op did, just because they choose to heat water/charge batteries via the engine. Rog

And plumbing these days ain't as hard as what it used to be either, what with the plastic piping, fittings and stuff, which is very likely all stocked in the boatyards chandlery anyway. Once they'd drilled the holes in the hull, which doesn't take long with the right gear, they would have been moreorless committed to completing the job.

A bitter pill to swallow, I feel your pain. Any reasonable person would assume that the contractor, realising they have under quoted by such a huge amount, would contact you before continuing. They are the professionals, and it's the least one would expect. But sometimes in life we have to grit our teeth and move on. Thanks for the salutary warning, which is obviously all your original post was about. Ignore the critics on here, life's too short Rog

I don't think I was blackening the reputation of anyone. The reason I posted in the 'new to boating' section rather than the 'maintenance' section was to highlight our experience as newbies in not getting what we expected due to not knowing what questions to ask. I do think I would point the finger at a lack of communication - as others have pointed out, to go from an estimate of £90 to a bill of over £500 without discussion seems to me a little short sighted. And to add... I haven't accused anyone of being a 'rip off merchant' - in fact in the earlier comments I made I did make this point. Perhaps you could point out where I have accused any boatyard of ripping me off.

and I would suggest that if anyone gets a quote off Rose boats, treats it as meaningless until they have made sure that Rose look at the job before quoting, and itemise the job with the quote, and are instructed not to spend more than a certain amount without reference to the customer.

They should have gone and checked it out properly before guessing.

While I think about it - I'm forgetting my manners. I bought a lovely boat and am really happy about it, but I should have mentioned how grateful I am to the forum members who gave me such good and helpful advice when I was asking questions to get a bit of knowledge before going to look at it. Thanks, all.

Surely not another anti cycling thread, with nothing new to add. I don't disagree with your objection to the behaviour mentioned but am weary of the daily mail type backlash these posts inevitably produce.

AIUI, the concern is the risk of dredging up unexploded ordnance. If CRT say don’t do it and you go ahead anyway and haul a present from the Luftwaffe out onto the towpath, they can’t be blamed for sanctioning your behaviour or your subsequent distribution around the scenery, unlikely as that may be.

Best to ask the insurers for a definitive answer. But generally no. www.basicboat.co.uk don't ask me for a survey, they'll insure a colander if you wish.