Gas fridge for an unconverted boat. 3 way caravan type.

[madcat]

I have been given a fridge,12volt/ 240v and gas. I'm not sure what make it is and I originally thought just to use it on mains while on my mooring but how hard is it to make a safe gas installation to use the fridge on gas,it will have to live in the hold.

Advice please as gas is something I have not previously considered.

[bizzard]

Gas fridges in my opinion are the the best although of the absorbtion type, nice and quite but a bit slower to get down to temperature and of course their main attribute is they won't kill your batteries if not on mains hookup. They need a bit of fairly simple maintenance once a year to keep them on top form. Check the BSS laws about venting the flu to the outside, though I think they've waved that now. A gas pipe and gas stop valve will be needed to spur off from somewhere to supply it with gas.

Edited May 20, 2013 by bizzard

[gazza]

As bzzard says, you really want it flued to the outside world, if nothing else but to get rid of the heat. Plenty of ventilation is a must too. They generate a fair bit of heat in operation.

We have a relay to the 12v fridge supplyon the run position of ignition switch, thus means you can power it off 12v while engine is running and not flatten batteries when its switched off, you have to remember to turn gas off though, else it gets a wee bit too hot!

Great fridges in all.

 

Just noticed it will be in the hold, ignore flue and ventilation, I am guessing that won't be a problem!

[bizzard]

There is an option to use it on electricity if not on hookup and you buy solar panels kit, a large battery bank, big alternator and all the other gubbins but on 12v electricity at least it will be drawing something like 5 to 7 amps which is a heck of a lot especially continuously. But if thinking of getting solar panels and all to help power it on electricity a careful bit of study and consideration needs to be done as to whether you'd ever recover the cost, mainly based on your age, your life expectancy and reliability and longevity of the panels and all the rest of the electrical gubbins..

As Gazza says 12v only when engines running and switch over to gas immediately you stop the engine.

Edited May 20, 2013 by bizzard

[alan_fincher]

Do you have gas on the boat at all at the moment?

 

If "yes" then adding the fridge should present no great issues..

But if "no" then by far the bigger task, (in my opinion), will be creating a BSS compliant gas locker to house and secure the cylinders and regulator, and which meets all the requirements of venting over the side, etc, etc.

Historic boats may achieve this by sectioning off part of the original locker in the bows, but it will probably need a false floor, and vent holes cut through the hull in a fairly "non historic" way. Only viable if the bulkhead to the rest of the boat is gas tight, (or can be made so), and you are not already using the space in some other way.

 

Otherwise you are into the territory, (from what I have seen), of fabricated gas tight boxes in front of the engine room bulkhead, but with their base at broadly gunwale height, and which then vent in some way through tubes over the side.

 

Unless of course you just stand a completely non compliant free standing gas bottle, with regulator, alongside the fridge in the hold, but make sure none of it is present every 4 years on the day of your BSS inspection(!) But there is a good reason why it is no longer considered safe or sensible to rely on such arrangements, (even if commonplace in the days of working boats operating as "campers").

But if you already have BSS compliant gas on board, (e.g. LPG hob in the back cabin, as some choose to), you can ignore all the issues about trying to create such an arrangement for the first time.

[madcat]

Situation is no gas at the moment, I wondered what the options were.

Regarding the camping boat option,I have to say that I would be curious to see the case against spelled out because gas is such an unknown to me. I doubt that I would go for that option because of the BSS issues.

My old faithful camping stove has no flame failure device so was only ever used in the van as I believe it would not comply.

Do gas fridges have this,I suppose they must. When I find out what make/model it is I will be on the lookout for instructions etc.

[bizzard]

Situation is no gas at the moment, I wondered what the options were.

Regarding the camping boat option,I have to say that I would be curious to see the case against spelled out because gas is such an unknown to me. I doubt that I would go for that option because of the BSS issues.

My old faithful camping stove has no flame failure device so was only ever used in the van as I believe it would not comply.

Do gas fridges have this,I suppose they must. When I find out what make/model it is I will be on the lookout for instructions etc.

The Electrolux gas fridge should have the flame failure thermo-couple device. But you have no gas system, a bit of a problem as Alan Fincher described.

Edited May 20, 2013 by bizzard

[madcat]

I suppose I have to suss out where I want to put the fridge and then work out where to put a gas locker . What do gas lockers have to be made of?,will a well sealed wooden box with a lid and a drain of flexible hose sealed to its lowest point do. I could make that but if it must be steel then I would have to get one made which would cost money.

How much gas do theses fridges get through,are they expensive to run?

[ditchcrawler]

I suppose I have to suss out where I want to put the fridge and then work out where to put a gas locker . What do gas lockers have to be made of?,will a well sealed wooden box with a lid and a drain of flexible hose sealed to its lowest point do. I could make that but if it must be steel then I would have to get one made which would cost money.

How much gas do theses fridges get through,are they expensive to run?

I don't think so

[bizzard]

I suppose I have to suss out where I want to put the fridge and then work out where to put a gas locker . What do gas lockers have to be made of?,will a well sealed wooden box with a lid and a drain of flexible hose sealed to its lowest point do. I could make that but if it must be steel then I would have to get one made which would cost money.

How much gas do theses fridges get through,are they expensive to run?

You need to read the BSS regs about the gas cylinder locker. I don't know the size of your fridge but they're quite frugal on gas. Its only a smallish pilot size flame. They normally have 3 settings low,med and high.

Edited May 20, 2013 by bizzard

[alan_fincher]

Very curiously, having had a quick look at the BSS regs, although it talks about a gas locker having to be gas tight, and have integrity of the welds, I can't actually see anything that says they have to be steel!

Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong place?

 

7.2.1/R REQUIREMENT

LPG cylinders in a cylinder locker:

Cylinder lockers have many advantages as a place to stow LPG, but
they must meet certain criteria to comply with the navigation
authorities’ requirements and national and international standards.
LPG is one of ‘the most searching gases’ and will escape quickly
from any weak point.

Is the cylinder locker LPG-tight up to the level of the top of the
cylinder valves or other high-pressure components?

Check the extent of the LPG-tight area of all LPG cylinder lockers.
Check the condition of all cylinder locker and housing bottoms and sides.

Cylinder lockers must be LPG-tight to the level of the top of the cylinder
valves, and other high-pressure components where these are located
higher than the valves.
Within the required LPG-tight area, the bottom, sides, and seams of
every cylinder locker must be free of holes, cracks, damaged welds,
significant corrosion, or other damage.
The above requirements also apply where any part of cylinder housing
forms a part of the craft’s hull or superstructure.

It would seem odd if you could use a gas tight wooden box, (or perhaps it wouldn't?), but unless a BSS inspector can tell us definitively, it may be a question best directed at those at the BSS office.

Edited May 20, 2013 by alan_fincher

[David Mack]

Do you have gas on the boat at all at the moment?

 

If "yes" then adding the fridge should present no great issues..

 

But if "no" then by far the bigger task, (in my opinion), will be creating a BSS compliant gas locker to house and secure the cylinders and regulator, and which meets all the requirements of venting over the side, etc, etc.

 

Historic boats may achieve this by sectioning off part of the original locker in the bows, but it will probably need a false floor, and vent holes cut through the hull in a fairly "non historic" way. Only viable if the bulkhead to the rest of the boat is gas tight, (or can be made so), and you are not already using the space in some other way.

 

Otherwise you are into the territory, (from what I have seen), of fabricated gas tight boxes in front of the engine room bulkhead, but with their base at broadly gunwale height, and which then vent in some way through tubes over the side.

On Fulbourne we have a welded steel open topped box which holds 2 gas bottles and which is fitted in the hold with the top just below gunwale level. It has a drain at the bottom connected via a flexible hose to a skin fitting through the hull. It has passed BSS inspections for years, although a while back one Inspector advised it should have a lid. So a plywood lid was quickly made.

 

ETA that as we are fitted out for camping and don't carry a load we don't need to worry about the level of the drain fitting. Our solution won't work for a carrying boat.

Edited May 20, 2013 by David Mack

[bizzard]

I had an old Harborough marine boat and that had thick wooden seat lids to the lockers on the stern cruiser deck. The lockers were thin steel clad on the outside with plywood.

I don't think there would be anything to stop you putting a metal locker on the roof with a low down spill tube dangling down below gunwale level.

Edited May 20, 2013 by bizzard

[alan_fincher]

I don't think there would be anything to stop you putting a metal locker on the roof with a low down spill tube dangling down below gunwale level.

Low bridges, possibly, if you actually wanted to boat anywhere?

[bizzard]

Got it, and cheap. Tow the bottle in the water behind the boat by a chain with flexible gas tube to skin fitting on boats transom then proper from there on in. Or a box mounted on the foredeck with spill tube led down below gunwale level, you see that done quite a lot.

[Chris Pink]

How about a bottle on the front deck chained to the cratch?

[blackrose]

How about a bottle on the front deck chained to the cratch?

 

I think the only way a boat without a gas locker can pass the BSS is if the bottle overhangs the boat in a cage. Putting the bottle on any deck is seen as potentially allowing gas into some area of the boat in the event of a leak.

 

I often see gas bottles placed on cruiser sterns - either temporarily or permanently. Yes, the likelihood is that any escaping gas will go over the side, but it could also find its way into the engine hole. Same with the well decks of narrowboats - any gas will probably go out through the scuppers, but it's possible it could also find its way through the door vents into the boat. The front deck might seem safe, but if the wind was in the wrong direction gas might come into the boat.

 

The only place a gas bottle should be on a boat is in a locker - or hung over the side in a cage.

 

Gas fridges in my opinion are the the best although of the absorbtion type, nice and quite but a bit slower to get down to temperature and of course their main attribute is they won't kill your batteries if not on mains hookup. They need a bit of fairly simple maintenance once a year to keep them on top form.

 

Can you elaborate Bizzard so I can get mine going again?

Edited May 21, 2013 by blackrose

[alan_fincher]

Although not banned BSS strongly recommends not hanging cylinders in a cage on the stern as they. Could get damaged in an impact accident.

[bizzard]

I think the only way a boat without a gas locker can pass the BSS is if the bottle overhangs the boat in a cage. Putting the bottle on any deck is seen as potentially allowing gas into some area of the boat in the event of a leak.

 

I often see gas bottles placed on cruiser sterns - either temporarily or permanently. Yes, the likelihood is that any escaping gas will go over the side, but it could also find its way into the engine hole. Same with the well decks of narrowboats - any gas will probably go out through the scuppers, but it's possible it could also find its way through the door vents into the boat. The front deck might seem safe, but if the wind was in the wrong direction gas might come into the boat.

 

The only place a gas bottle should be on a boat is in a locker - or hung over the side in a cage.

 

 

Can you elaborate Bizzard so I can get mine going again?

Ok you probably have an old Electrolux?Any other must be similar. Anyway here goes. Turn off isolation valve remove fridge, you might have to disconnect the flu from the hull vent if you have one. At the back where the flu pipe sticks up should be a wire loop, pull this up and the heat transmitting twisted length of metal should pop out.. Now go to the bottom of the heat exchanger that the flu pipe passes through, here will be the tin plate shrouded flame burner, remove the shroud usually held on with two or three self tapping screws and little locating tabs. The little flame burner will now be visible along with the fail safe thermo-couple bulb end poised over the flame slots, not unlike a tiny cookers oven burner. There will be a small locating screw holding this flame burner on, remove burner and clean it out. Now sweep the flu tube. I use a minuature wire bristle flu brush. sweep or vacuum clean the fallen soot and dirt away. Where the burner slid off from you will see the tiny gas jet,''this is the thing that usually gets partially or blocked with residue causing these fridges to not perform well, same as a cookers burner jets''. Probe this jet through, I use a watchmaker minuature drill bit but a wire brush bristle should fit. That's it. Clean everything and reassemble ensuring that the Therm-couple bulb is poised properly over the flame slots. If the fridge still doesn't work it will most likely be the fail safe thermo-coupler, easy and obvious to renew.

And of course make sure that the Paeso or electronic igniter is working.

Edited May 21, 2013 by bizzard

[MtB]

Good explanation Bizz (other than poking out the gas jet with a drill - I prefer to use copper fuse wire) but we do we actually know why Blackrose's fridge doesn't work?

 

Sometimes with Electrolux 3 way fridges the flame can be alight but the fridge fails to get cold, so I understand. This is caused an air lock in the fluid system. The fix is to invert the whole fridge for a minute, then right it again, apparently.

 

I've heard this many times but never encountered the problem myself, so I'm slightly suspicious it's an urban myth...

 

 

MtB

[bizzard]

Good explanation Bizz (other than poking out the gas jet with a drill - I prefer to use copper fuse wire) but we do we actually know why Blackrose's fridge doesn't work?

 

Sometimes with Electrolux 3 way fridges the flame can be alight but the fridge fails to get cold, so I understand. This is caused an air lock in the fluid system. The fix is to invert the whole fridge for a minute, then right it again, apparently.

 

I've heard this many times but never encountered the problem myself, so I'm slightly suspicious it's an urban myth...

 

 

MtB

You have to poke very carefully and gently for fear of the prober breaking off in the jet. Yes some say that by inverting an absorbtion fridge for a while and turning it back and leaving to settle for a while. I too am not sure about that one, worth a try I suppose.

[gazza]

It does work. We have a waeco fridge that was replaced by a friend as it didn't get cool. Tumbled it about a few times, put it on test at work on gas,12 and 240 all ok!

It's been in service for a couple of years now with no further problems.

If you read the manufacturer instructions it will say the caravan/ motorhome MUST be level, pretty hard to achieve in a boat. As I understand it, this is why inverting a fridge helps to restore its performance

[luctor et emergo]

A related question.

 

The regulations state that a gas tight lockers is needed to store the bottles, which makes sense. And whilst I understand the need to have a drain to the outside, which also makes sense, is it possible to have a secured, but movable, gastight locker, which would contain any leaked gas, but which could be 'emptied' away from the boat, if a leak had occured? That would be a solution for unconverted open holds, without requiring the need to makes holes in the hull. Or is the need for a drain absolute?

[alan_fincher]

Sometimes with Electrolux 3 way fridges the flame can be alight but the fridge fails to get cold, so I understand. This is caused an air lock in the fluid system. The fix is to invert the whole fridge for a minute, then right it again, apparently.

 

I've heard this many times but never encountered the problem myself, so I'm slightly suspicious it's an urban myth...

 

 

MtB

Yes, not specifically 3-way, of course as they also made ones that were just gas, without the 12v or 240V add ons.

 

I don't know about "invert for a minute", or indeed about "air lock", as the advice I was given 40 yeas ago said leave inverted overnight.

 

I certainly brought a fridge back into action that way then, so no, it is not an urban myth.

[David Mack]

A related question.

 

The regulations state that a gas tight lockers is needed to store the bottles, which makes sense. And whilst I understand the need to have a drain to the outside, which also makes sense, is it possible to have a secured, but movable, gastight locker, which would contain any leaked gas, but which could be 'emptied' away from the boat, if a leak had occured? That would be a solution for unconverted open holds, without requiring the need to makes holes in the hull. Or is the need for a drain absolute?

 

No. You must drain out the gas as it leaks. If you have a leaking (full) gas bottle the quantity of gas which will come out will be many times the volume of the gas locker, so it would simply overflow and flood the boat with gas. One spark and BOOM!!

 

You don't want your boat to resemble this house from yesterday's news: