Fuel Cost Rip-Off? Help Please

[lydfordcastle]

I've just returned from a one week cruise on the Canal de Nantes a Brest which was truly wonderful but marred by the nagging feeling that I may have been ripped off by the boat hire company's fuel charge. Unlike hire companies in the UK and Ireland who either include fuel in the hire cost or charge for measured consumption by the litre, the company I hired from charges for fuel by engine hours run, applying their own calculated rate of Euros per hour. Not a very clever system as it obviously encourages hirers to drive at the highest speed possible in order to keep engine hours to a minimum but that's not the basis of my question.

I noted the engine details as best I could and on my return to the UK contacted both the manufacturer (Nannidiesel) and the engine supplier based in Norfolk, asking them for an assessment of fuel consumption in litres per hour so that I would be able calculate if the hire company's charge was reasonable. Both organisations say they are unable to help me. Nannidiesel say they don't recognise the engine numbers and the engine supplier says that fuel consumption is so variable, if they quoted me the test bed figures it wouldn't help me. They also unhelpfully pointed out that I would have used fuel in the boat's heating system, but this does not matter as it would be unmeasured and therefore not charged by this system.

Believe me when you've just paid over £350.00 for 34 hours cruising fuel, anything will help.

So is there anyone out there who can help with my question?

The boat was 13.25 m long by 3 m wide, the engine appeared to be a four cylinder diesel and ran at 2000 rpm max, very quietly. The boat and engine were both no more than one year old.

How much fuel do you think I should have consumed in 34 hours?

[Mike Tee]

Its 6 years since we had a boat with a comparable engine, so I'm going on (sometimes not very good) memory, but if it used more than 3 litres per hour, I'd ask the waterskier to lose weight!

 

Joking aside, I'm sure we never used more than 1.5 ltres per hour. Don't know how much diesel is in France, but on UK prices, they are saying you used more than 10 litres per hour. That is a rip off. Was the price per hour not specified in the hire agreement?

 

ETA - this was on a narrowboat with a 4 cyl Nanni engine - just spotted you were on a widebeam - but I can't see that increasing the consumption by that much.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Mike Tee

[Ex- Member]

I've just returned from a one week cruise on the Canal de Nantes a Brest which was truly wonderful but marred by the nagging feeling that I may have been ripped off by the boat hire company's fuel charge. Unlike hire companies in the UK and Ireland who either include fuel in the hire cost or charge for measured consumption by the litre, the company I hired from charges for fuel by engine hours run, applying their own calculated rate of Euros per hour. Not a very clever system as it obviously encourages hirers to drive at the highest speed possible in order to keep engine hours to a minimum but that's not the basis of my question.

I noted the engine details as best I could and on my return to the UK contacted both the manufacturer (Nannidiesel) and the engine supplier based in Norfolk, asking them for an assessment of fuel consumption in litres per hour so that I would be able calculate if the hire company's charge was reasonable. Both organisations say they are unable to help me. Nannidiesel say they don't recognise the engine numbers and the engine supplier says that fuel consumption is so variable, if they quoted me the test bed figures it wouldn't help me. They also unhelpfully pointed out that I would have used fuel in the boat's heating system, but this does not matter as it would be unmeasured and therefore not charged by this system.

Believe me when you've just paid over £350.00 for 34 hours cruising fuel, anything will help.

So is there anyone out there who can help with my question?

The boat was 13.25 m long by 3 m wide, the engine appeared to be a four cylinder diesel and ran at 2000 rpm max, very quietly. The boat and engine were both no more than one year old.

How much fuel do you think I should have consumed in 34 hours?

 

 

Even if you ragged it I reckon you would struggle to use 2 litres per hour IMO £70.00 I think our 50hp is around 1.5 litres per hour.

 

So 70 litres at what ever cost per litre, hear poss £70

 

You need to read the small print, it seems they're charging you £10.00 per hour for diesel, they've either made a mistake with decimal point, or are indeed ripping you off.

[cheshire~rose]

I would not even have any idea how to start working out the calculation but my feeling is that when you hired the boat you must have signed some sort of contract and if the terms for charging for fuel were stated on that contract then by signing you agreed to pay it.

[gazza]

wow, that is steep!

 

recently had a couple of weeks on the boat, 27' x 9'6" elysian with a bmc 1.5, we used 1.5 lph 53 odd hours cruising = 80l

most of the time she was at 1500 rpm, odd blast above and frequent runs way below that.

old tech engine and a samller boat, but if you said they were charging 2.0 euros a litre you would have used 175 l for 34 hours cruising, which equates to 5.14 l an hour, sounds a bit thursty for a modern boat.

obviously these are fag packet sums, but, that makes for a dear weeks boating!

obviously they are charging 10 quid an hour so tidy mark up on the fuel

[LoneWolf]

I would not even have any idea how to start working out the calculation but my feeling is that when you hired the boat you must have signed some sort of contract and if the terms for charging for fuel were stated on that contract then by signing you agreed to pay

My thoughts exactly Edited May 17, 2013 by LoneWolf

[Albion]

My 16.5 x 3.5 m barge in France with a 90hp Beta engine does about 2.5 l/hr used normally. As you say, assessing fuel costs by looking at an engine hour meter encourages cruising at the max possible speed to minimise engine hours used (which has always been a criticism of mine of that system). It also encourages dodgy activities like waiting until fully cast off before starting the engine at the last minute, allowing your hire boat to drift onto and rub against other nearby craft (as happened to me). I guess I can understand why they do it though because it is a simple glance at a meter rather than having to hold up customers, who are eager to get away at the end of their hire, while each boat is fuelled up and the amount used annotated on each bill.

The fuel used in France, for private/hire boats, is DERV and so will be expensive compared to red and it is always more expensive in ports/hire bases compared to supermarket/fuel station prices.

Roger

[Paul C]

(I know its a bit late but....) What would have happened if you filled it up with fuel just before returning the boat?

 

(That's also a useful tip for anyone who is on a hire boat or share boat in this country - if they charge for fuel, check their rate including duty split and if its better at another boat yard, fill up there instead. A good one is Chas Harden - if you're holidaying south of their base, fill up at Bunbury before you return the boat).

Edited May 17, 2013 by Paul C

[Chris Pink]

Believe me when you've just paid over £350.00 for 34 hours cruising fuel, anything will help.

So is there anyone out there who can help with my question?

The boat was 13.25 m long by 3 m wide, the engine appeared to be a four cylinder diesel and ran at 2000 rpm max, very quietly. The boat and engine were both no more than one year old.

How much fuel do you think I should have consumed in 34 hours?

 

Makes absolutely no odds whatsoever how much it uses or even it runs on water. You signed a document that said you would pay €10 an hour for fuel, that's what you pay.

 

Lesson children: read the terms carefully before signing.

 

help others - stick a warning on tripadvisor

[BargeeSpud]

help others - stick a warning on tripadvisor

 

Top tip.

[lydfordcastle]

Makes absolutely no odds whatsoever how much it uses or even it runs on water. You signed a document that said you would pay €10 an hour for fuel, that's what you pay.

 

Lesson children: read the terms carefully before signing.

 

help others - stick a warning on tripadvisor

 

Not true I'm afraid. Here's the extract from the hire company's terms and conditions which refers to the cost of fuel.

 

Fuel is charged according to market rates and is subject to fluctuations in diesel prices. At the time of going to press, the hourly fuel charge is £4-£10/€5-€15 depending on boat type and usage, but could have since changed. In France, Germany, Holland, Belgium and Italy, The hire company charges for fuel according to the amount of hours the engine has been running. At the start of your cruise you will be informed how much the hourly charge will be and the current engine hours on your boat will be agreed and recorded with you. In Ireland, England and Scotland the hire company charges fuel by the litre. At the start of your cruise your boat will have a full tank of fuel and you will be advised by the base staff how much your fuel will cost per litre. Before departing the base you will be required to leave a Fuel Deposit payable locally in local currency (click for details). At the end of your holiday you will either pay an additional fuel cost to cover the amount of fuel actually used, or you will be due a refund if your fuel consumption is less than the deposit paid.

 

I don't think there's any way an ordinary hirer could possibly assess how much the fuel is going to cost from that information so personally I think that condition is unfair. If, as other helpful forum members have suggested, consumption should not exceed 2 litres per hour, and motorway forecourt prices for DERV in France are currently around €1.44/litre (€1.30 in supermarkets) then the actual fuel cost for my holiday should not have been greater than €100. If I allow the hire company a 30% mark-up on the fuel cost, then a total charge of €130 seems about right, a bit less than the €404.26 they actually stung me for.

 

I'm not a happy bunny, I think I'll now take it up with the hire company. Thanks to all for the helpful information.

Edited May 17, 2013 by lydfordcastle

[Greedyheron]

Surely the terms as above show that you will be paying an hourly rate, by hiring the boat I presume you agreed to this. Did they as the t&c's suggests tell you the hourly rate before you set off? If they did that seems fair (although you would have agreed to a ridiculously high price), if they did not then you may have room for argument. From the t&c's it appears that the boat fuel consumption has nothing o do with the calculation.

[Mike Tee]

It states quite clearly that the cost per hour is between euros 5 - 15 and also that you will be informed at the start of the cruise how much the hourly rate will be.

 

I personally think their charges are exorbitant, but it is pretty clear in their terms that firstly it won't be less than euros 5 and you will be told the exact rate before you start.

 

Best of luck with your complaint, I don't think you will be successful, but its worth a go.

[Guest]

What a rip off!

 

You can hire a boat for a week for that sort of money.

 

As along as you are sure of your facts it would be good to name them on here (as they cannot really complain about somebody stating facts on here), it would just serve as a warning to others considering a holiday with the same company.

 

I have an inkling to the company concerned but it wouldn't be fair to speculate in case i am wrong.

[furnessvale]

(I know its a bit late but....) What would have happened if you filled it up with fuel just before returning the boat?

 

(That's also a useful tip for anyone who is on a hire boat or share boat in this country - if they charge for fuel, check their rate including duty split and if its better at another boat yard, fill up there instead. A good one is Chas Harden - if you're holidaying south of their base, fill up at Bunbury before you return the boat).

Or better still, don't go past your friendly neighbourhood fuel boat without topping up:-)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Troyboy]

Rip off ice cream prices in Italy . Rip off diesel prices in France . Nasty lot those foreigners .

[David Mack]

So they said they would charge you an estimated 5-15 Euros per hour, and they've actually charged you about 12 Euros per hour. So what is the problem?

 

If you don't like the deal, why did you sign up to it?

(I know its a bit late but....) What would have happened if you filled it up with fuel just before returning the boat?

 

Good money after bad! You would have paid for the fuel to fill up, and still have to pay the same hourly charge to the hire company.

 

I agree its a worthwhile approach if the hire company is going to charge you for what it takes to fill the tank when you return to the base.

[Guest]

So they said they would charge you an estimated 5-15 Euros per hour, and they've actually charged you about 12 Euros per hour. So what is the problem?

 

If you don't like the deal, why did you sign up to it?

 

perhaps the fine detail wasn't spotted when the deal was signed - lets not pretend we haven't all been caught out at some point by not trawling through terms and conditions.

 

The problem is the extortionate price this company is charging their customers for diesel when road diesel is currently around 1.38 Euro's for a litre. over there.

Edited May 17, 2013 by The Dog House

[Chris Pink]

Fuel is charged according to market rates and is subject to fluctuations in diesel prices. At the time of going to press, the hourly fuel charge is £4-£10/€5-€15 depending on boat type and usage, but could have since changed. In France, Germany, Holland, Belgium and Italy, The hire company charges for fuel according to the amount of hours the engine has been running. At the start of your cruise you will be informed how much the hourly charge will be and the current engine hours on your boat will be agreed and recorded with you.

 

And?

 

...what did they inform you at the beginning of the trip?

 

 

it's Le Boat, known for luxury boats at luxury prices

[mayalld]

Not true I'm afraid. Here's the extract from the hire company's terms and conditions which refers to the cost of fuel.

 

Fuel is charged according to market rates and is subject to fluctuations in diesel prices. At the time of going to press, the hourly fuel charge is £4-£10/€5-€15 depending on boat type and usage, but could have since changed. In France, Germany, Holland, Belgium and Italy, The hire company charges for fuel according to the amount of hours the engine has been running. At the start of your cruise you will be informed how much the hourly charge will be and the current engine hours on your boat will be agreed and recorded with you. In Ireland, England and Scotland the hire company charges fuel by the litre. At the start of your cruise your boat will have a full tank of fuel and you will be advised by the base staff how much your fuel will cost per litre. Before departing the base you will be required to leave a Fuel Deposit payable locally in local currency (click for details). At the end of your holiday you will either pay an additional fuel cost to cover the amount of fuel actually used, or you will be due a refund if your fuel consumption is less than the deposit paid.

 

I don't think there's any way an ordinary hirer could possibly assess how much the fuel is going to cost from that information so personally I think that condition is unfair.

 

Whilst I would agree that this is extraordinarily steep, to the point where I would regard the product as overpriced, and not do business with them, I would take issue with your claim that the ordinary hirer couldn't possibly asses what fuel is going to cost him. He can be in no doubt that it will cost him anything up to €15 per hour. You appear to have been charged a little over €12 per hour, so you have been charged an amount that is within the range that you were informed of.

 

By contrast the way we do it in the UK (charge for the fuel actually used) might be cheaper, but it is far less certain for the hirer, who has little idea of how much will be used.

[Guest]

Interesting that they don't try the same on with their customers in the UK & Ireland and charge by actual fuel used.

 

But even then they don't state what the price will be until the start of the holiday, what do you do then if you are unhappy, cancel and walk away? and lose all your money.

 

Sharp practice......

[mayalld]

Interesting that they don't try the same on with their customers in the UK & Ireland and charge by actual fuel used.

 

But even then they don't state what the price will be until the start of the holiday, what do you do then if you are unhappy, cancel and walk away? and lose all your money.

 

You fill up before taking the boat back.

[Guest]

You fill up before taking the boat back.

 

Fair point

 

- assuming you can mind but yes.

[Paul C]

 

 

 

Good money after bad! You would have paid for the fuel to fill up, and still have to pay the same hourly charge to the hire company.

 

I agree its a worthwhile approach if the hire company is going to charge you for what it takes to fill the tank when you return to the base.

 

If the "charge" is definitely just for fuel, then its reasonable to have the charge not be owed if no fuel needs to be replenished on the boat. Its an odd way of charging for fuel (a very odd way....since its priced per litre) but if they're saying that's the fuel, then so be it. If they want to charge some kind of "per hour" engine wear/other kind of charge based on engine hours, then I'd suggest they're trying to charge you twice for something.

 

Definitely dodgy, probably not the kind of thing you'd notice in the T&Cs though when you're booking an expensive holiday. And even if you did, it would be a reasonable assumption to assume the charge was reasonable, and actually related to the fuel used. On that basis, I think you have a very good chance of simply not paying it. If you returned the boat undamaged, then I'd be asking for the full deposit back and without this ridiculous fuel charge. By all means pay them for 1 (or whatever more reasonable number) litre/hour of fuel if you want.

[Guest]

If the "charge" is definitely just for fuel, then its reasonable to have the charge not be owed if no fuel needs to be replenished on the boat. Its an odd way of charging for fuel (a very odd way....since its priced per litre) but if they're saying that's the fuel, then so be it. If they want to charge some kind of "per hour" engine wear/other kind of charge based on engine hours, then I'd suggest they're trying to charge you twice for something.

 

Definitely dodgy, probably not the kind of thing you'd notice in the T&Cs though when you're booking an expensive holiday. And even if you did, it would be a reasonable assumption to assume the charge was reasonable, and actually related to the fuel used. On that basis, I think you have a very good chance of simply not paying it. If you returned the boat undamaged, then I'd be asking for the full deposit back and without this ridiculous fuel charge. By all means pay them for 1 (or whatever more reasonable number) litre/hour of fuel if you want.

 

I suspect they get away with it as they do it in France, if it was here I'm pretty sure the OFT or trading standards would be interested in such an outrageous over charging regime.

 

Personally I'm glad the OP posted because we have often considered a boating holiday in France as an alternative to a gite which is what we normally do. If we do I sure wouldn't touch 'Le Boat' (who I suspected it was) with a very long barge pole.......