Building a boat to the RCD?

[rjasmith]

Anyone doing a DIY build/fit out of a boat to the RCD has various options on making sure they comply with the requirements.

 

I suppose most people engage a surveyor or similar company that offers a service of advising you on the way everything needs to be done, writes your Technical Manual and Owners Manual for you and finally inspects the finished boat and signs off the Declaration of Conformity. This service presumably isn't cheap (although as it's not what I've chosen to do I haven't tried to find out how much it does cost).

 

Another way is to access the RCD Harmonised Standards yourself, read and understand them and then effectively act as your own surveyor and do all of the stuff mentioned above. This is completely within the rules and should be much cheaper for those brave or foolish enough like me to choose it!

 

Now comes the choice of how to access the Standards. there are about 30 of them and you could:-

 

1. Buy the lot from BSI for the small sum of approx £5000.

 

2. Join the RYA's RCDweb and have download access to them. This costs £550 as the first fee and then £180 per annum for as many years that you want to keep renewing annually thereafter.

 

3. And this has been my choice. Go and read them for free in your local library. Better still live in a county that allows access online from your PC at home once you've logged in as a library member.

 

I've been managing to do 3. including online access from home for some time now but a year ago Surrey libraries closed their access. I joined West Sussex Libraries, they did the same a month later. I asked if I could join Hampshire Libraries and was allowed to despite not living in Hampshire!

 

Now, after a further 6 months, Hampshire have closed their access "pending licence fee negotiations with BSI". I suspect they won't resume it although I've yet to hear finally.

 

I've touted round a no of other Counties without success so far until I hit on Cambridge and found they still do it (I remembered a comment from Radiomariner of this parish telling me this six months ago). I have a cunning plan to ask them to let me become a member and regain access but have yet to act on this! Living in Sussex may make it a rather tall order but we'll see!

 

Today I heard of a much greater bombshell that not only are libraries cutting the access from home PCs but ALSO the access from the PCs in the branch libraries themselves. This would mean not even being able to go to the library and read them or obtain the usual 10% of the pages.

 

If this happens more and more across the UK we will soon find it nearly impossible to do the "Do it yourself RCD" and be forced to use eg RCDweb or employ a surveyor.

 

Does anyone else have a view on this?

 

What is the situation in other County Libraries that I havent mentioned above?

 

Richard

[Biggles]

I am doing mine throughout the software from Linky.

 

All seems to be working just fine for me.

[Radiomariner]

:angry:

Anyone doing a DIY build/fit out of a boat to the RCD has various options on making sure they comply with the requirements.

 

I suppose most people engage a surveyor or similar company that offers a service of advising you on the way everything needs to be done, writes your Technical Manual and Owners Manual for you and finally inspects the finished boat and signs off the Declaration of Conformity. This service presumably isn't cheap (although as it's not what I've chosen to do I haven't tried to find out how much it does cost).

 

Another way is to access the RCD Harmonised Standards yourself, read and understand them and then effectively act as your own surveyor and do all of the stuff mentioned above. This is completely within the rules and should be much cheaper for those brave or foolish enough like me to choose it!

 

Now comes the choice of how to access the Standards. there are about 30 of them and you could:-

 

1. Buy the lot from BSI for the small sum of approx £5000.

 

2. Join the RYA's RCDweb and have download access to them. This costs £550 as the first fee and then £180 per annum for as many years that you want to keep renewing annually thereafter.

 

3. And this has been my choice. Go and read them for free in your local library. Better still live in a county that allows access online from your PC at home once you've logged in as a library member.

 

I've been managing to do 3. including online access from home for some time now but a year ago Surrey libraries closed their access. I joined West Sussex Libraries, they did the same a month later. I asked if I could join Hampshire Libraries and was allowed to despite not living in Hampshire!

 

Now, after a further 6 months, Hampshire have closed their access "pending licence fee negotiations with BSI". I suspect they won't resume it although I've yet to hear finally.

 

I've touted round a no of other Counties without success so far until I hit on Cambridge and found they still do it (I remembered a comment from Radiomariner of this parish telling me this six months ago). I have a cunning plan to ask them to let me become a member and regain access but have yet to act on this! Living in Sussex may make it a rather tall order but we'll see!

 

[code]Today I heard of a much greater bombshell that not only are libraries cutting the access from home PCs but ALSO the access from the PCs in the branch libraries themselves. This would mean not even being able to go to the library and read them or obtain the usual 10% of the pages.

[/code]

If this happens more and more across the UK we will soon find it nearly impossible to do the "Do it yourself RCD" and be forced to use eg RCDweb or employ a surveyor.

 

Does anyone else have a view on this?

What is the situation in other County Libraries that I havent mentioned above?

 

Richard

 

Where did you glean that info from?

I certainly have views on this.In my opinion all such information should be freely available to all. However,I concede that the standards institute has a very important much needed function and has to pay for itself somehow.

I last looked into Cambridge library web site about six weeks ago, it was still operational then. It is open to residents of Cambridgeshire and adjoining counties.

 

If I were you, I would opt for the RYA option, the cost is small compared to the total expense of building a boat. In addition the RYA will assist with the RCD Registration

[rjasmith]

:angry:

 

Where did you glean that info from?

I certainly have views on this.In my opinion all such information should be freely available to all. However,I concede that the standards institute has a very important much needed function and has to pay for itself somehow.

I last looked into Cambridge library web site about six weeks ago, it was still operational then. It is open to residents of Cambridgeshire and adjoining counties.

 

If I were you, I would opt for the RYA option, the cost is small compared to the total expense of building a boat. In addition the RYA will assist with the RCD Registration

 

Alan,

 

I have spoken today directly to contacts in Surrey Libraries HQ and West Sussex Libraries HQ. I am waiting to hear from Hampshire.

 

Both Surrey and Sussex have confirmed that in addition to having no plans to resume the online access from home PCs they have recently shut down the access from within all their libraries as well. They blame BSI for becoming "difficult" as well as having to review their costs.

 

I have also talked to senior staff in Cambridge Libraries and they say that Cambridge has no plans to close either form of access but that all their services will be reviewed in November!

 

Tomorrow I am going to try ranting at BSI themselves. Will probably do me no good at all!

 

My feeling is that nobody who deals with access to standards has any understanding of the particular problem faced by amateur boat builders/fitters out trying to comply with the RCD.

 

Maybe we should be doing more lobbying or something. Imagine if overnight the free access to the Building Regs Guides was suddenly withdrawn without consultation!

 

Richard

 

I am doing mine throughout the software from Linky.

 

All seems to be working just fine for me.

 

I've just had a look at that site - it doesn't seem to give any clues as to how much their software costs for some strange reason. Can you say how much you paid for their service?

 

Richard

 

Edited to add:- Actually You don't need to tell me! I finally trawled all the way through their online blurb and at last got the answer!!

 

It seems to be "From £900" whatever that means!

 

I still prefer my "from nearly £0.00" because I have plenty of time (retired engineer) and enjoy researching the original documents and understanding the requirements.

Edited May 26, 2011 by rjasmith

[Gibbo]

However,I concede that the standards institute has a very important much needed function and has to pay for itself somehow.

 

It is true that it has an important function.

 

However, the very fact that they charge for the standards means it is in their interest to keep fucking them up (as they do with monotonous regularity) so that they have to keep making new ones, which they charge again for.

 

I think a lawyer would have a field day with this. Anything anyone else sells has to be fit for its intended purpose for a certain period of time. Standards are not fit for purpose for anything approaching a reasonable period of time because the standards bodies deliberately (yes, I maintain deliberately) obsolete them every time they need a bit more money.

 

If they operated from a government grant, and were forced to give the standards away, I reckon the standards would last about 25 years instead of the (sometimes) 18 months they currently do before they miraculously find a reason to scrap one and replace it with another that is just as badly drafted.

 

In fact, I've just changed my mind. Standards bodies are a waste of space and every single one of them should be closed down. They are either utterly incompetent, crooked, or more likely both.

[Radiomariner]

I tend to agree with you Gibbo but did not wish to get involved in a long "rant"

Do not however entirely agree with your final statement. (Change of mind) To avoid a total wipe out of the human race by natural selection and stupidity, standards of some sort must be drawn up. I do agree that the system,as it stands, is as you describe. Improvement or simplicication is difficult as it will require further committee's to draw up further standards for the improvements and simplifications

 

Edited to add: - If the lawyers can not come up with a suitable judgement on a narrow-boat being a smidgen too wide, to be described as unfit for purpose, I can perceive them having a massive struggle withe the BSI who are supposidly responsible for the regulations determining fitness for purpose! Interesting concept. Law courts chockka for years!

 

Further edition to add: - above comment is intentionally frivolous. I do not wish to get involved in a debate on the role of the courts etc etc.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Radiomariner

[MoominPapa]

It is true that it has an important function.

 

However, the very fact that they charge for the standards means it is in their interest to keep fucking them up (as they do with monotonous regularity) so that they have to keep making new ones, which they charge again for.

 

I think a lawyer would have a field day with this. Anything anyone else sells has to be fit for its intended purpose for a certain period of time. Standards are not fit for purpose for anything approaching a reasonable period of time because the standards bodies deliberately (yes, I maintain deliberately) obsolete them every time they need a bit more money.

 

If they operated from a government grant, and were forced to give the standards away, I reckon the standards would last about 25 years instead of the (sometimes) 18 months they currently do before they miraculously find a reason to scrap one and replace it with another that is just as badly drafted.

 

In fact, I've just changed my mind. Standards bodies are a waste of space and every single one of them should be closed down. They are either utterly incompetent, crooked, or more likely both.

 

As an example of a better way to do things, look no further than the Internet Engineering Task Force. Probably the single most complex engineered system ever is standardised via completely openly available standards, open to peer review by anyone who's interested and owned by no-one. The standards (called RFCs) are generally extremely good; certainly much better than specifications drawn up in other ways (cough, PXE, cough). "You're violating the RFC" is probably the worst insult you can give a writer of networking software.

 

MP.

Edited May 26, 2011 by MoominPapa

[ChrisPy]

 

 

 

 

In fact, I've just changed my mind. Standards bodies are a waste of space and every single one of them should be closed down. They are either utterly incompetent, crooked, or more likely both.

as a recently retired engineer I can endorse those views. I no longer have to refer to the crap every day of my working life, and as a result I feel released.

[Nickhlx]

Does the same apply to the wiring regulations / standards ? I believe we are on the 17th edition now, although I think this was largely brought about by the apparent need to be in agreement with Europe. Is not safe wiring practice unambiguous, or is it being realised that improvements really can be made every few years ?

 

Nick

[paulcatchpole]

Fully agreed with MP, the IETF way is a good one... That said, it can take a long time to get from draft to published!

 

(cough, PXE, cough). "You're violating the RFC" is probably the worst insult you can give a writer of networking software.

 

Tee hee. Doesn't mean that vendors always listen, and on that specific standard - *cough* Mitel *cough*

 

PC

 

PS: And Microsoft treat RFCs as a what-not-to-do guide at times too...!

[Gibbo]

Is not safe wiring practice unambiguous, or is it being realised that improvements really can be made every few years ?

 

This gives a good opportunity to clarify my position.

 

If I (before I sold up), as a company, produced a piece of software, sold it, then realised 6 months later it was wrong, morally, I could not disable every one I had sold and then release a new version which I charged for. It would be totally wrong. The right thing to do would be to release an update and give it away to anyone who bought the previous version. How long that "free updates" goes on for would obviously be related to the cost of the software. For instance, in the case of a piece of sotware costing £10, it woud be reasonable to expect it to last (say) 18 months. A piece of software costing (say) £250 I would expect free updates for at least 10 years.

 

Yet what I suggest above as being morally wrong is exactly what BSI do. If one pays (say) £250 for a "standard" I believe it is reasonable for it to last 10 years. If they change the standard in that period they should be forced, by law, to give the new standard to anyone who had bought the old one. If that happened I am 100% convinced that the continual updates would stop overnight.

 

The other scam they pull is they get a "standard" incorporated into law. Anyone needing to comply with that legislation then has to go out and buy that standard. Inside that standard it will refer to another 6 standards that one also has to buy. At the end of the day, anyone who has to comply with that part of the law ends up having to spend (say) £1500 just so they know what it is they have to comply with.

 

They spend this money, then find out 3 months later that the £1500 they just spent is now worthless because BSI (in conjunction with their European counterparts) have obsoleted all 7 standards and replaced them with "version 84". This happens time and time again.

 

It is a complete and utter scam. It is nothing less than outright theft and criminality.

 

ETA: Any law that anyone has to comply with should be freely available to all. There is no way it is even close to being right that people have to spend money to find out what it is they have to comply with. How they have got away with this for so long is beyond me.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Gibbo

[Radiomariner]

.

 

It is a complete and utter scam. It is nothing less than outright theft and criminality.

 

Hear Hear

 

ETA: Any law that anyone has to comply with should be freely available to all. There is no way it is even close to being right that people have to spend money to find out what it is they have to comply with. How they have got away with this for so long is beyond me.

Totally agree. So what can we do about it?

I feel very emotive about this subject. This cost and escalating PL and Pi insurance premiums (combined with my intention in my retirement to limit myself to a maximum of two or three jobs per month) were major issues with my descision not to set up my own "Boat Surveyor" buisness.

[Bat & Frog]

 

Today I heard of a much greater bombshell that not only are libraries cutting the access from home PCs but ALSO the access from the PCs in the branch libraries themselves. This would mean not even being able to go to the library and read them or obtain the usual 10% of the pages.

 

 

How about joining Cambridge library (or borrowing a members access) and visiting 10 times, getting 10% each time, or am I missing something and being to simplistic.

[Gibbo]

Totally agree. So what can we do about it?

 

I see two possible options:-

 

1. Start a petition and get the government to change the situation. I have grave doubts about the possibilty of success via this route.

 

2. Start an underground internet movement that anyone who actually has a current "Standard" (of whatever type) publishes (shares) it on the net. A bit like hackers do with software and a bit like many people do with films and music. Software, films and music is (obviously) illegal but it's also immoral. Doing the same with "Standards" is perfectly moral. Fuck the law.

[mayalld]

What is the situation in other County Libraries that I havent mentioned above?

 

I believe that Derbyshire still allows access.

 

Although, as I no longer work in Derbyshire, I'm being a good boy and not using their service.

[rjasmith]

How about joining Cambridge library (or borrowing a members access) and visiting 10 times, getting 10% each time, or am I missing something and being to simplistic.

 

I'm already working on that with the kind assistance of another CWDF member who I shall not name here. This should give me access online again for as long as Cambridge continue to afford the BSI licence!

 

Your second point is not lost on me either. Doing this norty thing depends on the particular library's procedures. Surrey does it properly and checks your library id each time you ask for your 10% of a particular standard. They then put a copying request through to HQ quoting your no. When the pages are ready they are sent to the branch and you call in, pay the small fee (eg 20p per page) and collect them. Try this again at another branch in the same county and the big red light and klaxons go off at HQ!!

 

However other counties don't operate with the same procedural rigour and your trick could work!

 

Of course to get your 10% you do have to physically go in so an actual journey to Cambridge each time would not be very practical for me!

 

Yesterday I got through to a very helpful HQ person in Hampshire and it seems they are still negotiating with BSI over next year's licence so all may not yet be lost and their service could still be restored.

 

I had a (very polite!) rant at her and put the case for impoverished private boat builders trying their best to comply with UK and European Law. Not many of these library folk have any clue about the RCD and she wasn't even aware that Hampshire Trading Standards Dept (all Trading Stds depts are supposed to police subsequent claims of RCD non compliance) are considered to be UK leaders over all other counties on this topic. She has asked me to put all this in writing to her to help with their case, which I will do.

 

Another line of approach from my hours on phone and internet over the last day or so is to find out about the British Library. They can't give online access but they do hold complete paper copies of all BS and will loan them to you for 3 weeks via your local branch library. No one in any library has ever told me this but I shall by trying it forthwith!

 

Anyone in UK can join the British Library for free.

 

Quite useful to have a complete BS document available at home for 3 weeks I would think!!

 

Richard

Edited May 27, 2011 by rjasmith

[Nickhlx]

I'm already working on that with the kind assistance of another CWDF member who I shall not name here. This should give me access online again for as long as Cambridge continue to afford the BSI licence!

 

Your second point is not lost on me either. Doing this norty thing depends on the particular library's procedures. Surrey does it properly and checks your library id each time you ask for your 10% of a particular standard. They then put a copying request through to HQ quoting your no. When the pages are ready they are sent to the branch and you call in, pay the small fee (eg 20p per page) and collect them. Try this again at another branch in the same county and the big red light and klaxons go off at HQ!!

 

However other counties don't operate with the same procedural rigour and your trick could work!

 

Of course to get your 10% you do have to physically go in so an actual journey to Cambridge each time would not be very practical for me!

 

Yesterday I got through to a very helpful HQ person in Hampshire and it seems they are still negotiating with BSI over next year's licence so all may not yet be lost and their service could still be restored.

 

I had a (very polite!) rant at her and put the case for impoverished private boat builders trying their best to comply with UK and European Law. Not many of these library folk have any clue about the RCD and she wasn't even aware that Hampshire Trading Standards Dept (all Trading Stds depts are supposed to police subsequent claims of RCD non compliance) are considered to be UK leaders over all other counties on this topic. She has asked me to put all this in writing to her to help with their case, which I will do.

 

Another line of approach from my hours on phone and internet over the last day or so is to find out about the British Library. They can't give online access but they do hold complete paper copies of all BS and will loan them to you for 3 weeks via your local branch library. No one in any library has ever told me this but I shall by trying it forthwith!

 

Anyone in UK can join the British Library for free.

 

Quite useful to have a complete BS document available at home for 3 weeks I would think!!

 

Richard

 

If you need any help getting some / part via another Hampshire resident, let me know...

 

( See you next Thursday !)

 

Nick

[WotEver]

Quite useful to have a complete BS document available at home for 3 weeks I would think!!

I'm warming up the scanner now

[rjasmith]

I see two possible options:-

 

1. Start a petition and get the government to change the situation. I have grave doubts about the possibilty of success via this route.

 

2. Start an underground internet movement that anyone who actually has a current "Standard" (of whatever type) publishes (shares) it on the net. A bit like hackers do with software and a bit like many people do with films and music. Software, films and music is (obviously) illegal but it's also immoral. Doing the same with "Standards" is perfectly moral. Fuck the law.

 

In respect of your 2. above, this has already happened in a small way and I've pointed it out on here once before. If you Google for ISO 13297 and ISO 10133 (the RCD stds for 240v AC and ELV DC supplies on boats) and look carefully at what comes up you will find a whole lot of sites offering them for sale for the approx £100 each. But look closer and you will find a Polish website with both of them on there in English as .pdfs to download for free! I won't put a link to them on here because it might not be a Good Thing.

 

Richard

[ChrisPy]

I made an appointment at Bristol central library business section and was able to view all the relevant ISOs in pdf form on a desktop computer linked to the library network. They told me that I could ask for 10% of the content to be printed. Very thoughtfully the desktop had a USB port and no-one said I couldn't copy the pdf files onto a stick.

This was several years ago, I don't know if the arrangements have changed.

[rjasmith]

I made an appointment at Bristol central library business section and was able to view all the relevant ISOs in pdf form on a desktop computer linked to the library network. They told me that I could ask for 10% of the content to be printed. Very thoughtfully the desktop had a USB port and no-one said I couldn't copy the pdf files onto a stick.

This was several years ago, I don't know if the arrangements have changed.

 

That service is precisely what Surrey and Sussex have just shut down. Prior to that they shut down the much more useful remote access at home. The second bit you describe about sticks I think you mentioned on here once before and made me laugh!

 

About a year ago BSOL changed the way their website worked so that remote access in libraries or at home no longer downloaded protected pdfs Their website (if anyone can still see it!) now displays some sort of pdf image which simply can't be exported to anywhere on any PC. (Sorry if this is not a very correct description as I'm no I/T wizard!).

 

Richard

 

Well while I've been rabbitting on here Cambridge Libraries have emailed accepting my application to join.

 

Hooray - back to the garden to work on the boat again (legally)

 

Still going to try joining the British Library though and will post again if this seems a useful step.

 

Richard

[WotEver]

Still going to try joining the British Library though and will post again if this seems a useful step.

Because it was mentioned here I toddled off to BL Online and performed a search for "Recreational Craft Directive". I got a number of hits, none of which was complete and many of which appeared to complement each other. It left me entirely confused.

 

It appears that as well as having to purchase/borrow/steal a number of "Standards" you also have to go somewhere different in advance in order to find out exactly what it is that you want to purchase/borrow/steal.

 

Tony

Edited May 27, 2011 by WotEver

[rjasmith]

Because it was mentioned here I toddled off to BL Online and performed a search for "Recreational Craft Directive". I got a number of hits, none of which was complete and many of which appeared to complement each other. It left me entirely confused.

 

It appears that as well as having to purchase/borrow/steal a number of "Standards" you also have to go somewhere different in advance in order to find out exactly what it is that you want to purchase/borrow/steal.

 

Tony

 

But Tony it's not meant to be easy you know - try reading the RSG guidelines to the RCD produced in Brussels!

 

Also try reading the two RCD documents themselves.

 

They both end with the signatures of the EU Parliament and the EU Council Presidents and then the following comment:-

 

"Done at Luxembourg 16 June 2001"

 

On both my copies, in big red writing, I have written underneath:-

 

"WE CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN!"

[WotEver]

But Tony it's not meant to be easy you know - try reading the RSG guidelines to the RCD produced in Brussels!

Now look what you've made me do... I'm trying to read them and getting a headache.

 

Tony

[rjasmith]

Now look what you've made me do... I'm trying to read them and getting a headache.

 

Tony

 

First time I tried it I started one evening fairly late. After glazing over several times I actually went to sleep at the computer desk. When I woke up, the birds were singing and it was getting light.

 

Now I suggest it to anyone as a cure for insomnia!

 

Richard