[Roger Gunkel]

anhar, on Jun 26 2006, 04:15 PM, said:

On the towel rail point, these never used to be standard on their Sandpiper range, but I noticed a few months ago that they have introduced them as a standard fitting. I don't think it is primarily to dissipate excess heat from the boiler, more something for the owner's comfort. I think a lot of customers asked for one. If you wish to be able to shut it off then you need to ensure if possible that it is installed with a normal rad valve for doing so.

regards
Steve

Hi Steve,

As you rightly say, NBC have stopped fitting Ebers, but I'm not so sure about the Towel rail, as the heat dissipation work around has come from a number of sources and indirectly from Eberspacher via their sub contract engineers.

If purchasers have had one fitted, I would suggest that to avoid problems, they would be unwise to keep it off for long periods if it the only other heat dissipation apart from the calorifier. That is until official word to the contrary comes from Eberspacher.

Regards
Roger

[Maffi]

Roger Gunkel, on Jun 26 2006, 06:06 PM, said:

<snip>
So is this finally an admission from Eberspacher that the units do actuall coke up on red diesel if allowed to tick over, or do we assume that this is normal for all hydronics and that lorries have heated towel rails in the cabs? <snip?

As you may know I have a new Hyd 10 fitted in Milly M. I am concerned that this unit is not up to spec.

I asked Eberspacher two questions:

Sir
I am having a Hydronic 10 fitted to my new 58 ft narrow boat. There
seems to be a lot of bad press on the internet forums about this unit.

Questions:

Will it run properly on red deisel?

What level of self servicing is doable?

their response was

We are aware of the press reports regarding all marine heaters including
our competitors. I think it is no secret that from the time the petro
chemical companies stopped supplying red diesel (I.E. White diesel with
a red die added) and started using gas oil instead, all marine diesel
appliances have been suffering.

That said, yes this heater will run on red diesel but the service
intervals may be reduced, depending on usage. If the heater can be run
on a separate tank, using paraffin, white diesel or a red diesel and
paraffin mix the service life will be greatly extended.

As for self servicing, the unit should not be touched whilst in its
warranty period.

Should you require any further information or assistance, please do not
hesitate to contact us.

Kind regards

Eberspacher (UK) Ltd
Heating Division

Their answer to the second question was understandable I suppose.

I have since sent them a further 8 questions I will let you know the answers.

[Mick and Pauline]

Hi Maffi,

I find the comments you received to your Red Diesel question very misleading, because I was not aware of any oil company that would throw profit away. Because that is what they would be doing if they blended a Derv spec product and then down graded it by putting the red dye additive into it, it doen't make sense. If you want Dyed Gasoil that is what you make, not Derv.
The market price dictates the profit margin and why blend a product to be over spec, nobody is going to pay more than they should for Red Diesel.
Strange, very strange.

Maffi, (not long now, for both of us).

M & P.

[Roger Gunkel]

Maffi, on Jun 26 2006, 07:54 PM, said:

As you may know I have a new Hyd 10 fitted in Milly M. I am concerned that this unit is not up to spec.

I asked Eberspacher two questions:

[color=#3333FF]Sir
[color=#FF0000]We are aware of the press reports regarding all marine heaters including
our competitors. I think it is no secret that from the time the petro
chemical companies stopped supplying red diesel (I.E. White diesel with
a red die added) and started using gas oil instead, all marine diesel
appliances have been suffering.

Hi Maffi,

Just like Mick and Pauline, I find your reply from Eberspacher to be strange and rather disturbing.
I don't recall any admissions from petro chemical companies about this, does anyone else?

As for the reduction in servicing hours, there appears to be no mention of how many hours or how you are expected to measure them. That also begs the question why? They are still not admitting that there is a problem running on red diesel when we all know that there is and this appears to confirm it. Why haven't other users like myself been given this same information?

As regards servicing, any warranty will be negated by self servicing and you will find appointed dealer servicing quite expensive. We have been advised typically around £300 with parts. If your service intervals are reduced, then this could add up to considerable cost. We have also found a great reluctance by any agent to supply parts direct to owners and Eber will only supply agents. I would be interested in any other observations on that aspect.

Finally, you mentioned a Hydronic 10 on your 58 ft NB. My 57 ft WB had a 10 and the engineers sent by Eberspacher said that it was over specified for the boat, removed it and fitted a 5 instead.

Regards,
Roger

[idleness]

Adding a heat leak is nothing new
Many houses have them fitted in the heating system for use when the boiler is only supplying hot water.
I for one would never fit any kind of diesel boiler on a boat be it a drip feed one or a Mikuni type without a heatleak.
The problem is that unlesss you have had the calorifier specially built with an extra large heat exchanger it can not disipate enough heat to stop the system shutting down.

At present I use the radiator in the bathroom as a heat leak, works well, we always get up to a warm bathroom, but then my heating in summer is only on from 0400-0700 and if I need extra hot water in the evening I just use the immersion.

As I have said before 99% of diesel heater faults are due to poor installation most boat builders just dont have a clue when it comes to fitting thse systems.
Luckily there are some boat builders that do know what they are doing (or employ people that know) but they are few and far between.

Julian

[Mick and Pauline]

Hi Roger,

I worked for a major oil company for 35 years at a refinery handle their oil product movement and the only time we down graded Derv (G101) to Red Gasoil (G102) was when we had a tank outage for cleaning or repairs.
That not very often because of the big losses because one tank held 6,000,000 litres of product. So let say you lost a couple of pence per litre, I think you get the picture.

M & P.

This post has been edited by Mick and Pauline: 26 June 2006 - 09:43 PM

[Roger Gunkel]

idleness, on Jun 26 2006, 10:21 PM, said:

The problem is that unlesss you have had the calorifier specially built with an extra large heat exchanger it can not disipate enough heat to stop the system shutting down.

Hi Julian,
I,m quite prepared to believe that a lot of systems are poorly installed and know that there were a number of installation problems with my own, although I'm not sure where your figure of 99% or anywhere near it came from.

However, surely the problem has less to do with the system shutting down, rather the problem of greater carbon produced by the red diesel at the slower running speeds.

Roger

Mick and Pauline, on Jun 26 2006, 10:42 PM, said:

Hi Roger,

I worked for a major oil company for 35 years at a refinery handle their oil product movement and the only time we down graded Derv (G101) to Red Gasoil (G102) was when we had a tank outage for cleaning or repairs.
That not very often because of the big losses because one tank held 6,000,000 litres of product. So let say you lost a couple of pence per litre, I think you get the picture.

M & P.

Hi M & P

Yes, I think you have summed it up completely

Roger

[Leonora Davy]

We are seriously considering fitting a Webasto heater and would be interested in the answer to this ?
It appears that all the comments so far have been directed at Eberspachers ?

Golden Duck, on Jun 23 2006, 01:51 PM, said:

Has any liveaboard had problems with a Webasto in the same way as those with Ebers ??

[Maffi]

Roger Gunkel, on Jun 26 2006, 11:35 PM, said:

Hi Maffi,

Just like Mick and Pauline, I find your reply from Eberspacher to be strange and rather disturbing.
I don't recall any admissions from petro chemical companies about this, does anyone else?

As for the reduction in servicing hours, there appears to be no mention of how many hours or how you are expected to measure them. That also begs the question why? They are still not admitting that there is a problem running on red diesel when we all know that there is and this appears to confirm it. Why haven't other users like myself been given this same information?

As regards servicing, any warranty will be negated by self servicing and you will find appointed dealer servicing quite expensive. We have been advised typically around £300 with parts. If your service intervals are reduced, then this could add up to considerable cost. We have also found a great reluctance by any agent to supply parts direct to owners and Eber will only supply agents. I would be interested in any other observations on that aspect.

Finally, you mentioned a Hydronic 10 on your 58 ft NB. My 57 ft WB had a 10 and the engineers sent by Eberspacher said that it was over specified for the boat, removed it and fitted a 5 instead.

Regards,
Roger

I have put another 8 or 9 questions forward to Erbspacher including service intervals and running time, and await their reply.

Seems to me that being an Erby Engineer is a lucrative job, I wonder what the training is? I must be most of the way there with my aircraft experience.

Leonora Davy, on Jun 27 2006, 01:09 AM, said:

We are seriously considering fitting a Webasto heater and would be interested in the answer to this ?
It appears that all the comments so far have been directed at Eberspachers ?

Accodring to Erbspacher their competition is getting bad press as well.

[Roger Gunkel]

Leonora Davy, on Jun 26 2006, 11:09 PM, said:

We are seriously considering fitting a Webasto heater and would be interested in the answer to this ?
It appears that all the comments so far have been directed at Eberspachers ?

Hi Leonora, Welcome to the forum.

Sorry about all the Eberspacher replies, but my long running saga has been because of my Eberspacher problems and most comments have been from those who are particularly interested in, or have information on this particular unit.

I don't know and can't comment with any knowledge on Webasto, although it does seem that they suffer from less problems and some companies seem to be changing over to them. I have always been under the impression that they run on a similar system to the Eberspacher, but could be wrong.

It could be worth your while setting up a new topic to ask exactly your question, then the topic heading will attract those who can offer you advice.

Good luck
Roger

Maffi, on Jun 26 2006, 11:40 PM, said:

Seems to me that being an Erby Engineer is a lucrative job, I wonder what the training is? I must be most of the way there with my aircraft experience.

Be interesting to see their replies to your questions.

You can come and sort mine out if you're cheap! Must be a big market out there!

Roger

[idleness]

Roger Gunkel, on Jun 26 2006, 10:51 PM, said:

Hi Julian,
I,m quite prepared to believe that a lot of systems are poorly installed and know that there were a number of installation problems with my own, although I'm not sure where your figure of 99% or anywhere near it came from.

However, surely the problem has less to do with the system shutting down, rather the problem of greater carbon produced by the red diesel at the slower running speeds.

I meant slow speeds as well
All systems produce carbon to some extent, My Mikuni very little the Old Dutch diesel stove needs cleaning every 3 months but then it is on 24/7 through the winter.

99% comes from manyyears being around boats and looking at the quality of work that has been done.
Sure there are a lot of good carpenters out there but thats not all it takes to build a boat.
IF I was having a new boat built I would project manage it myself and use many different tradesmen as I just dont trust one firm to do a job to the quality that I would demand.
My present boat has a reasonable fit out and was only a couple of years old when I got it, however I have had to replace all the heating and most of the plumbing and electrics to get it to the standard I want.
Luckilly that is something that I can do myself, however my carpentry leaves something to be desired (in my eyes).

J

This post has been edited by idleness: 27 June 2006 - 08:03 AM

[NB.BELLE]

I, like MAFFI and some others, have tried to get some meaningful feedback from Eberspächer regarding this red diesel issue by putting some questions to them directly. I did not ask them anything about the means for establishing the hours run though - my main concern was ensuring compatibility with the fuel available on the cut. I must stress that, having been around this loop back in February 2006, I still feel that there is some merit in using a Hydronic 5 rather than opting for the 10 and I also feel that incorporating TRV's at the radiators would be a good idea. I spent a few hours on the theory and calculating the size of boiler required - not a route that everybody would like to take, but it did help me consolidate my thoughts. We have taken the precaution of incorporating two diesel tanks into our new build whilst we could do so with ease. You can read about our experiences here if you so wish (in the February entry).

BELLE - BLOG

These issues have been around for while now, so if it really is a matter for Eberspächer to sort out, then they better get a grip on it, otherwise they will get some more serious grief from their customers and potential customers will go elsewhere. Cheers, Chris.

[anhar]

NB.BELLE, on Jun 27 2006, 09:14 AM, said:

...These issues have been around for while now, so if it really is a matter for Eberspächer to sort out, then they better get a grip on it, otherwise they will get some more serious grief from their customers and potential customers will go elsewhere. Cheers, Chris.

Hello Chris

New Boat Co., who used to fit Ebers to all their boats and, because they are one of the largest suppliers of new canal boats around must have been a major customer of Eber, have already gone elsewhere - to Webasto which have been fitted to all their boats since the last year or so.

There is no such thing as a system which has never ever caused any problems for anyone. Even the top ranked and eye wateringly expensive Hurricane, which I'm gettting on my boat, has had one reader on this forum with major problems. The question though is the frequency of those problems and whether they are resolved satisfactorily. It appears to me from reading others' experiences here and elsewhere, like the New Boat Co.'s decision, that Ebers both seem to create more problems than other systems and that those problems are not cleared up properly.

It's no good Eber blaming the canalside fuel and that their systems work fine on road trucks. I expect they are right but that doesn't help us canal boaters. In effect, their product seems not to be fit for the purpose of heating a canal boat and they appear unable to rectify this fault. People should not fall for the twin tanks supposed answer either. I guess that would work if you could obtain the sort of clean fuels on the canalside that are recommended, such as paraffin or road diesel, but in general you cannot.

regards
Steve

[Gary Peacock]

You know this Eberspacher thing seems to go on and on, we fit a lot of them and if they caused us grief we wouldn't be fitting them. The builder always takes the brunt of any problems so I would think that if they are really that bad no one would be fitting them.

Non of the marine units are designed for residential use so you have to pick the most suitable out of the remaining options.

Hopefully we are looking into a full blown domestic system based on normal domestic technology so if it comes to fruition I will let you know.

[NB.BELLE]

Hi Steve, I agree, if there is a problem with the Eberspächer Hydronic 5/10, be it the fuel used and/or the installation designs employed by the boat builder, then it would be in Eberspächer's interests to get to the bottom of it one way or another. If this means collaborating with other manufacturers of this kind of kit in order to square up the fuel suppliers if they are at fault, then they should adopt a pro-active approach and get on with it. If it means developing their unit some more, then they should get on with that too. The Eberspächer bloke I talked to would not say if they were waiting for the dust to settle on the red diesel derogation issue, before committing to some more development.

I feel I should point out that our original thoughts behind the 'two tanks' idea was in response to the threat to the tax derogation on red diesel. So we were heading this way anyway - an added benefit is the option to use different fuels to help with this boiler sooting or gumming problem with Eberspächer (and possibly other units).

I agree with you, there is no such thing as 100% reliability, but I propose that, these days, you can get quite close to it. We have decided that we will not change from the Eberspächer Hydronic 5 just yet, because with us requiring a diesel fired system, we have not yet seen any objective evidence to prove this is not an endemic problem. It would be very interesting to structure a poll or on-line questionnaire on CWDF in such a way that this would drive out data that could then be used to indicate the reliability of all diesel fired boilers in use on inland waterway boats. This information could then be used alongside the first cost and service frequency/cost data from the manufacturers to calculate the approximate LCC (Life Cycle Cost) for each unit. Then we would see who has the best package around at the moment.

It would be interesting to learn if NBC descision was purely based on in-service reliability, or whether there were other influential factors (e.g. availability in Poland, or warranty coverage, avalability of field personnel, etc.).

Not looking forward to beating up Eberspächer during the warrantly period, but if needs must, then I will be!

Cheers, Chris.

[Mick and Pauline]

Just like Mick and Pauline, I find your reply from Eberspacher to be strange and rather disturbing.
I don't recall any admissions from petro chemical companies about this, does anyone else?

Hi Roger / Maffi,

I have given my grey matter a rest overnight and the only thing I can think that Eberspacher's are on about, could be the government changes to the sulphur content of road fuels. Over the last ten years the oil companies have been forced by regulations to reduce road fuel (Derv & Petrol) sulphur content, now 10ppm from 50ppm and even higher before that.
There has been no co-responding reduction in Red Gasoil (Diesel), so the heaters used in the road market are now using a lot sweeter fuel than they used to.

The point raised by Gary this morning points towards the two things coming out of this topic,
1) the heater size is a critical choice to its eventual performance. If the unit is too big for the boat it works at a too low throughput and cokes the burner quickly. Gary's boat market is mostly broad beam boats with bigger systems which work better at the correct throughput.
2) the use of different fuels does make a difference because of the sulphur content, so using Derv (10ppm) or using Coloured Paraffin will reduce the coking up of the burner.

M & P.

This post has been edited by Mick and Pauline: 27 June 2006 - 11:12 AM

[Mick and Pauline]

[quote name='NB.BELLE' date='Jun 27 2006, 11:34 AM' post='65542']
Hi Steve, I agree, if there is a problem with the Eberspächer Hydronic 5/10, be it the fuel used and/or the installation designs employed by the boat builder, then it would be in Eberspächer's interests to get to the bottom of it one way or another. If this means collaborating with other manufacturers of this kind of kit in order to square up the fuel suppliers if they are at fault, then they should adopt a pro-active approach and get on with it. If it means developing their unit some more, then they should get on with that too. The Eberspächer bloke I talked to would not say if they were waiting for the dust to settle on the red diesel derogation issue, before committing to some more development.

Hi Chris,

I think Eberspacher already know the answer to this topic but are not willing to admit it because it would finish their boat business.
For them to admit that you should use the low sulphur fuels in their heaters, would have a very big impact.
This is because:-
1) the fuel cost difference is so big with Red at 27p / litre and Derv at 98p / litre.
2) the lack of Derv and Paraffin suppliers on the canal network.
3) the use of a second tank for this fuel.

Would you admit to this publicly.

M & P.

[anhar]

NB.BELLE, on Jun 27 2006, 11:34 AM, said:

...It would be interesting to learn if NBC descision was purely based on in-service reliability, or whether there were other influential factors (e.g. availability in Poland, or warranty coverage, avalability of field personnel, etc.).

Not looking forward to beating up Eberspächer during the warrantly period, but if needs must, then I will be!

Cheers, Chris.

Hi Chris

When I was looking for a boat, I visited New Boat Co. several times over a period of time as they were one of my potential suppliers. Most of their boats like their best selling Sandpiper range are built by Liverpool Boats, not in Poland by the way. It is only their Aqualine range that are from Poland.

It was during this period, covering the latter part of last year and earlier this one, that I noticed the change to Webasto from Eber. Because I researched in great depth the boat I wanted by looking at many boats both new and sh, talking to many builders, boaters and read extensively etc., I was interested in why NBC switched to Webasto, especially as by then I had gotten wind from this forum of a certain amount of dissatisfaction with Ebers. So I asked them and the answer was that Ebers lock up and need a call out if they fail to light a certain number of times whereas Webasto are easier to service. The clear implication was that Ebers simply are less reliable than Webasto and that they had a lot of trouble from customers with Ebers. The reason was not price, nor availability or any of the other possible factors that might influence such a decision - a business decision I might add, not a private user's view - it was the reliability.

Having said all this, I'm sure that there are a lot of satisfied Eber users out there as Gary from Ledgard suggests. But this isn't the point. The real point is the proportion of dissatisfied customers due to faults reported and then the quality of the service in fixing them. Given the choice, naturally one wants to go for the most reliable system available, that is the one with the lowest faults and the best service when inevitably some faults arise with some installations. The evidence is only anecdotal but it does not seem to me that Eber qualifies as one with the lowest proportion of faults. As I said earlier, I am particularly swayed by NBC's decision in this matter.

regards
Steve

This post has been edited by anhar: 27 June 2006 - 04:22 PM

[NB.BELLE]

Hi y'all. Interesting to note that the NBC reason offered to Steve for switching from the Eber' (I am fed up with opening symbol and then inserting an a with an Umlaut on it) was down to the limitation on the number of ignition failures before automatic lock-up. I have to agree, I am none too impressed with this approach on the part of Eber either. I would like to think that my car engine managment system would not lock up if, say, I flooded the engine and could not get it started, etc. Such a feature certainly limits your options for overcoming the problem. However, I have already seen a potential 'work-around' for this, albeit I would much prefer that Eber did away with it. The underlying reason being poor reliability though, I am not too sure about.

I am aware that the Aqualine comes from Poland and that (well at the moment I believe this is the case) most of the other NBC narrowboats come from LBC. Not sure who does the wide beam for them. Who knows what will happen eventually, but that is 'off topic', so I will not go there on this thread. Steve; you must of course follow your own judgement based on the information currently available. I wish you all the best with your Hurricane.

I am minded to send another email to Eber with a link to this thread along with a request that they offer some feedback to this wider forum. I would be interested to see their response and any evidence they could offer to make matters clearer regarding the ability of their Hydronic 5/10 to function satisfactorily with a reasonable service interval/cost, whilst running on the 'red diesel' sold on the cut. Cheers, Chris.

This post has been edited by NB.BELLE: 27 June 2006 - 02:26 PM

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi all,

Just come on to the forum and found loads of interesting stuff that I have missed today.

I think Gary's comment was very relevant about Ebers and probably others not being designed for residential use. As I have said before, for low hours use, a service every year or two will probably keep these units running, but the problem starts with long hours residential use, when units start to give major problems fairly early on in their life. However, the Eber particularly is still marketed as 'Central Heating For Boats', and it is reasonable to assume that those looking to live aboard permanently would take this literally.

The comments about NBC changing to Webasto are also interesting and I am sure that the reasons quoted are quite correct. It is also interesting to see that Eberspacher are playing the fuel card very heavily presumably to tar the other manufacturers with the same brush.
Chris, you mentioned sending Eber an email with a link to this thread. I gave them the link some months ago, and I am quite sure that they are well aware of the concerns expressed here and in other areas.

I agree with M&P and others about the requirement for two tanks and the lack of availability of suitable fuel to boat users, not really a practical solution. Also as said by M&P, Eberspacher should adopt a pro-active approach, get off their backsides and work with everybody to get the problem solved.

I must say that at last I feel from the amount of serious discussion here, with corresponding feed back to heater manufacturers and boat builders (and from boat builders like Gary) that we can make real differences to product development.

Keep it up folks
Roger

This post has been edited by Roger Gunkel: 27 June 2006 - 05:44 PM