My bildge pump wont turn off!

[deletedaccount]

So I thought I had a manual bildge pump. When I flicked the switch it would come on and when I flicked it back it'd go off.

 

Well now it's on all the time.

 

So, clever bod that I am I tried to check if the switch was broken and stuck on. A couple of hours of fun later (one of which I spent in the dark) I discover that no matter what I do, disconnected or not, it's always on.

 

This strikes me as odd. How can it be getting power when I've turned it off on the board. Esp when the switch used to turn it on and off?

 

So my question is, I guess, how do I turn the blasted thing off, and how do I fix it so it only comes on when it should? I have no idea whatg type of pump it is, but I'm guessing it's an auto with a manual override. But a really weird one, wired up wierdly.

 

Anyone?

[Barry]

You're not sinking are you DA?

[deletedaccount]

Nah

 

It's got about a cm of water in the compartment behind the engine and that's it.

 

The pump looks like a 'rule mate automatic'

 

oh, and it looks clean inside. I took the bottom off and the filter was fine.

[soldthehouse]

Nah

 

It's got about a cm of water in the compartment behind the engine and that's it.

 

The pump looks like a 'rule mate automatic'

 

oh, and it looks clean inside. I took the bottom off and the filter was fine.

Over the side with it

[mayalld]

So I thought I had a manual bildge pump. When I flicked the switch it would come on and when I flicked it back it'd go off.

 

Well now it's on all the time.

 

So, clever bod that I am I tried to check if the switch was broken and stuck on. A couple of hours of fun later (one of which I spent in the dark) I discover that no matter what I do, disconnected or not, it's always on.

 

This strikes me as odd. How can it be getting power when I've turned it off on the board. Esp when the switch used to turn it on and off?

 

So my question is, I guess, how do I turn the blasted thing off, and how do I fix it so it only comes on when it should? I have no idea whatg type of pump it is, but I'm guessing it's an auto with a manual override. But a really weird one, wired up wierdly.

 

Anyone?

 

Sounds like a slightly odd setup, where the manual operation is wired via the DC distribution board, and the automatic operation has a separate feed direct from the battery to the float switch.

 

This will mean that the bilge pump will run even if you turn everything off (better a flat battery than sinking).

 

There is, however a snag with this arrangement...

 

If you turn the battery master switch off, and leave the bilge pump switch on, every time the bilge pump triggers, the float switch will be back feeding the DC panel and starting up your 12v fridge (for example), drawing far more current through the float than it should carry, and welding the contacts.

 

A new float switch, and re-wiring will fix!

[RobinJ]

Sounds like a slightly odd setup, where the manual operation is wired via the DC distribution board, and the automatic operation has a separate feed direct from the battery to the float switch.

 

This will mean that the bilge pump will run even if you turn everything off (better a flat battery than sinking).

I agree, since even the automatic setting should run through a switch (possible the same one).

If indeed the pump is running on an automatic supply that cannot be isolated by the battery switch, it may be becuase the float chamber has filled with crud, simply lifting it out and cleaning and shaking may solve the problem.

I have to say I have had a couple of Johnson float swicthes fail (the hall effect type), I assume becuase of water ingress?, but have always failed off!

[WotEver]

A new float switch, and re-wiring will fix!

Or indeed a new float switch and a diode.

 

Tony

[ChrisPy]

After suffering problems with my Johnson switch which I did not bother to investigate too deeply I fitted a hinged Whale switch which was recommended as being very reliable by Force 4. Ater 2 months it only worked intermittently. It lifted OK but no clearly no electrical contact was being made inside the sealed chamber. If I lifted it a few times it corrected itself.

Western Marine's website recommends fitting 2 switches, one hinged mechanical type and one of the type with no moving parts.

 

I am back to using the Johnson which seems to work OK now.

[deletedaccount]

Well I'm going to try and fish it out this lunchtime, although it's attached to the wiring pretty solidly.

[RLWP]

In the world of more mature boats...

 

Our float switch is firmly bolted to a bit of heavy angle and sits in the sump under the propeller shaft. However, this angle is not fixed to anything and can move around. So it is not unusual if, after a bit of a bump, the angle has shifted and wedged the float on the switch against the side of the swim. The float is wedged up so the pump is running, but the float cannot drop to switch the pump off. The cure is boards up and put the angle back where it should be so the float switch can switch off.

 

Check your float switch

 

Richard

[deletedaccount]

In the world of more mature boats...

 

Our float switch is firmly bolted to a bit of heavy angle and sits in the sump under the propeller shaft. However, this angle is not fixed to anything and can move around. So it is not unusual if, after a bit of a bump, the angle has shifted and wedged the float on the switch against the side of the swim. The float is wedged up so the pump is running, but the float cannot drop to switch the pump off. The cure is boards up and put the angle back where it should be so the float switch can switch off.

 

Check your float switch

 

Richard

 

I'm fairly certain it's built into the pump on mine!

[RLWP]

I'm fairly certain it's built into the pump on mine!

 

Could well be. Does the cage on the bottom of the pump come off so you can clear the impeller and float switch?

 

Richard

 

Going off-topic a little. I was pretty sure that your pump and switch will be different to mine, but I thought I would put my experience in for the benefit of future searchers.

[Chris Pink]

the solution is almost certainly the simplest.

 

as Dave M says it is wired so that the manual operation is available - this is standard and you can buy a panel wired like this.

 

but my guess would be a bit of crap stopping the float switch sinking, the cage should come off and then you will be able to see what's happening and whether it will switch off by wiggling the switch.

 

Float switches are the most common failure on bilge pump systems.

 

take it as a wake up call that you should be aware of where the fuse (and isolation switch) is situated for the bilge pump because it is almost certainly before the main isolator as allowed by the BSS

[deletedaccount]

Could well be. Does the cage on the bottom of the pump come off so you can clear the impeller and float switch?

 

Richard

 

Yeah, I took the plastic grill off and checked the metal te strainer like filter and it was fine. Didn't see any kind of switch in there but I'm going to have another look later.

 

Going off-topic a little. I was pretty sure that your pump and switch will be different to mine, but I thought I would put my experience in for the benefit of future searchers.

 

Fair enough!

[Chris Pink]

Yeah, I took the plastic grill off and checked the metal te strainer like filter and it was fine. Didn't see any kind of switch in there but I'm going to have another look later.

 

 

 

Fair enough!

 

if you're anywhere near Bathampton bring it to me and I'll have a look.

[deletedaccount]

the solution is almost certainly the simplest.

 

as Dave M says it is wired so that the manual operation is available - this is standard and you can buy a panel wired like this.

 

but my guess would be a bit of crap stopping the float switch sinking, the cage should come off and then you will be able to see what's happening and whether it will switch off by wiggling the switch.

 

Float switches are the most common failure on bilge pump systems.

 

take it as a wake up call that you should be aware of where the fuse (and isolation switch) is situated for the bilge pump because it is almost certainly before the main isolator as allowed by the BSS

 

Funnily enough I found out a couple of other things about my 12v system last night. One of them being that the big red knob that's supposed to be the master on/off thing doesn't work properly. It turns off some of the electrics and just drops the voltage to others. When I say drops the volatge it's an assumption, but the lights dim when I turn it but don't go out.

 

I searched all over for something closer to the batteries that might do the trick but couldn't find anything. I suspect it's in the engine hole somewhere.

[deletedaccount]

Ok, so I've just taken it apart and it's still on.

 

On o0ne side there's the pump bit. On the other there's a little chamber where the float goes. Helpfully labeled "this side down". I've removed the float and there's no blockages at all.

 

What is weird though is that in the chamber there's just a float. No switch or anything. It's a plastic cube with nothing in it apart from the float. How does that work anyway?

 

So now I'm totally confused. There's no float switch! The rest of the unit is sealed so I can't get at it and most frustrating of all there's no way of disconnecting the pump from the supply. It appears that the leads are attached to the pump permentantly (as in they're part of the pump), they enter a tube which then dissapears into the boat somewhere along with a bunch of other wires in tubes. So I can't see how to unplug it at all.

 

Gah!

[RLWP]

Ok, so I've just taken it apart and it's still on.

 

On o0ne side there's the pump bit. On the other there's a little chamber where the float goes. Helpfully labeled "this side down". I've removed the float and there's no blockages at all.

 

What is weird though is that in the chamber there's just a float. No switch or anything. It's a plastic cube with nothing in it apart from the float. How does that work anyway?

 

So now I'm totally confused. There's no float switch! The rest of the unit is sealed so I can't get at it and most frustrating of all there's no way of disconnecting the pump from the supply. It appears that the leads are attached to the pump permentantly (as in they're part of the pump), they enter a tube which then dissapears into the boat somewhere along with a bunch of other wires in tubes. So I can't see how to unplug it at all.

 

Gah!

 

The float may have a magnet in it that switches through a detector like a reed switch. That way there are no contacts to get corroded.

 

If you take the float out, does it switch off?

 

If you disconnect the wire from the manual switch does it switch off?

 

Richard

 

Richard

[Chris Pink]

they enter a tube which then dissapears into the boat somewhere along with a bunch of other wires in tubes.

 

Welcome to the world of boat wiring.

[deletedaccount]

the solution is almost certainly the simplest.

 

as Dave M says it is wired so that the manual operation is available - this is standard and you can buy a panel wired like this.

 

but my guess would be a bit of crap stopping the float switch sinking, the cage should come off and then you will be able to see what's happening and whether it will switch off by wiggling the switch.

 

Float switches are the most common failure on bilge pump systems.

take it as a wake up call that you should be aware of where the fuse (and isolation switch) is situated for the bilge pump because it is almost certainly before the main isolator as allowed by the BSS

 

Found it! Cheers for that Chris.

 

The float may have a magnet in it that switches through a detector like a reed switch. That way there are no contacts to get corroded.

 

If you take the float out, does it switch off?

 

If you disconnect the wire from the manual switch does it switch off?

 

Richard

 

Richard

 

Taking the float out made no difference and unplugging the wire from the 12v distribution panel made no difference. But locating the little breaker before the main isloator and 'breaking' it did! Given your description of magnetic switches I'm now guessing that it's something inside the sealed box that's broken.

 

Welcome to the world of boat wiring.

 

 

I now have a fully manual bilge pump, which I can turn on and off by putting the little jumper thing in.

 

Cheers all. I now know a little bit more about boats. And my one in particular

 

Sounds like a slightly odd setup, where the manual operation is wired via the DC distribution board, and the automatic operation has a separate feed direct from the battery to the float switch.

 

This will mean that the bilge pump will run even if you turn everything off (better a flat battery than sinking).

 

There is, however a snag with this arrangement...

 

If you turn the battery master switch off, and leave the bilge pump switch on, every time the bilge pump triggers, the float switch will be back feeding the DC panel and starting up your 12v fridge (for example), drawing far more current through the float than it should carry, and welding the contacts.

 

A new float switch, and re-wiring will fix!

 

This must be why my lights didn't turn off when I flicked the master switch. I've just checked and they all go off now.

 

At least it sounds safer the way I've got it now than before.

Edited October 12, 2009 by deletedaccount

[RLWP]

Found it! Cheers for that Chris.

 

 

 

Taking the float out made no difference and unplugging the wire from the 12v distribution panel made no difference. But locating the little breaker before the main isloator and 'breaking' it did! Given your description of magnetic switches I'm now guessing that it's something inside the sealed box that's broken.

 

 

 

 

I now have a fully manual bilge pump, which I can turn on and off by putting the little jumper thing in.

 

Cheers all. I now know a little bit more about boats. And my one in particular

 

You can have quite a pleasant time getting to know your bilge pump with a few bits of wire, a battery and a bucket of water. Don't point the outlet at yourself when you plunge the pump in the bucket deep enough to trip the float switch...

 

Richard

[deletedaccount]

I'll remember that

[WotEver]

At least it sounds safer the way I've got it now than before.

 

Yes and no.

 

If you turn off the main isolator you now have no automatic bilge pump should you get a leak for whatever reason. Personally, I'd either buy a new pump or an external float switch, and put a diode in the feed after the breaker.

 

Tony

[ChrisPy]

another issue to be aware of is the typical 3-way rocker switch fitted to the control panel.

mine has sprung loaded manual + automatic + off.

if someone accidentally touches the switch and puts it off there is no automatic function, and no warning that the pump is disabled.

stupid design.

Edited October 12, 2009 by ChrisPy

[Chris Pink]

If you turn the battery master switch off, and leave the bilge pump switch on, every time the bilge pump triggers, the float switch will be back feeding the DC panel and starting up your 12v fridge (for example), drawing far more current through the float than it should carry, and welding the contacts.

just saw this, which is incorrect.

 

The override switch is wired in parallel with the float switch so that you switch the pump on with either the override or the float switch.

 

There is no path back to the domestic electrics unless, which is incredibly unusual (and impossible with the panel you can buy) there is a separate feed to the bypass switch and the float switch.