Fire on my Boat

[cotswoldsman]

I am posting this just as warning to other boaters.

 

My boat was built in 2006 and I took delivery in December of that year, so not an old boat. I have lived on it since so 3 winters. During that time I have only burnt smokeless coal as recomended by the manufacturer of the stove.

 

On the 3 April at aprox 6:30 pm while watching TV the boat started to feel a bit smooky, I managed to trace the source of the smoke to behind the fire, infact it was coming from behind the fire tiles behind the fire. As it was quite a warm day the fire was not burning very high so was able to put the fire in the stove out quite quickly by putting wet towels inside. The smoke was still coming out from behind the fire tiles I also managed to trace this and just kept sponging the tiles with wet towels after about 1 hour the smoke stoped. 2 hours later I started to feel that eveything was under control.

 

On the Monday 6 April the boat builder came to look at the problem, on removing the fire tiles there was a hole that had burnt through the wood behind the fire tiles. The hole was about 6" square and it became obvious that this had not just happened in one evening but over a number of months and the reason that the smoke had started to come out was that some of the filler used between the tiles had droped out.

 

I was lucky that I was on the boat infront of the fire and not asleep or down the pub.

 

I would advise everyone to check that there is a good fireboard behind there fire just to be on the safe side.

[Proper Job]

Thank goodness you were OK and there's not too much damage. It could have all been so different.

 

There was a thread a few months ago (I think it was one of Gary's) regarding the proposal for a new ISO standard for the installation of solid fuel stoves in boats. As well as flue's it covered safe distances from ajacent walls and what materials should be used. There were some 'horror' examples of where stoves had been squeezed in - and these where on brand new boats.

[BlueStringPudding]

Blimey. Scary. Thanks for sharing that story. A good warning for us all, especially if installing our own stoves.

[Proper Job]

I should have looked first!

 

Much discussion here: Stove thread Have a look at post 46

Edited April 16, 2009 by Proper Job

[Guest]

Glad nobody was hurt, and no great damage done. Could have been very nasty if you hadn't been present, or had been asleep. Proper installation and a reliable smoke alarm are a must with solid fuel burners and the like.

[cotswoldsman]

Glad nobody was hurt, and no great damage done. Could have been very nasty if you hadn't been present, or had been asleep. Proper installation and a reliable smoke alarm are a must with solid fuel burners and the like.

 

I do have 2 smoke alarm but caught the fire before they kicked in. My point is that numpties like myself are unaware of what constitutes proper instalation in my case I trusted the boat builder to install the fire properly.

[Dawnie]

Hi Steve

your own post (44) of that thread

QUOTE (alan_fincher @ Feb 26 2009, 11:02 AM)

And something I have repeatedly tried to find the answer to.....

 

How many serious injuries and fatalities are there actually in narrow boats from the many things perceived as dangerous, (stoves, gas installations, LPG fridges, etc....)

 

Even allowing for the tragic results of some cowboy fitting, (whether "owner" or "professional"), I still get the impression that working boats on canals and through locks is at least equally hazardous as to living with the onboard dangers.

 

If I'm close to correct, then we should legislate to stop people indulging in the dangerous practices of actually using and enjoying their boats, surely ?

At the end of the day - any fatality that can be avoided is a good thing. But I agree with you Alan, in comparison to how many boats that are fitted with solid fuel stoves, how many are fitted perfectly, how many are fitted 'dangerously'.

 

I can see where Gary is coming from as well. Once this standard is put in place, any 'professional' who fits a stove that doesn't follow the BSI/ISO etc to the letter can expose themselves to litigation. They will not give it as an option.

 

We will all have to have noisy, forced draft diesel heaters. The one on the boat in front of me is great. Every time it runs, I have to shut all of my windows - 1. because of the noise, 2. because within 5 minutes it sets of my CO alarms with the fumes.

 

Not that I should worry though - my solid fuel stove fitted by the steps to my front door, with its single skin flue and dodgy chimney will have killed me off first.

 

Hey ho

 

--------------------

 

Steve

 

You joked about it there but you have been so lucky.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Carol Whale

[Proper Job]

Hi Steve

your own post (44) of that thread...............

 

You joked about it there but you have been so lucky.

To be honest, luck doesn't currently come in to it. But it had in the past.

 

A previous boat of mine had some tiles fall off from behind the stove. Behind the tiles I found scorched ply. I was never overly happy with the space behind the stove (It just had enough room for the pipes to exit from the back boiler). This was subsequently ripped out and replaced with painted fire board.

 

Ocelot has plenty of room (in my opinion) around the stove and has painted fire board around it (if anything is going to be scorched, I want to see it happening). Add to that, two smoke alarms and two CO alarms.

 

I would never have a tiled fire surround again

Edited April 16, 2009 by Proper Job

[magnetman]

the person who originally fitted the stove on my boat bolted a sheet of 1/8 inch thick stainless steel to the back of the stove, on spacers so it stands about 1 inch behind and it has a slightly bigger outline than the stove itself. it stops the tiles behind the stove getting hot.

 

Seems like quite a good idea to me. only takes up an inch but makes a big difference by introducing an air gap and a heat reflector. old house stoves used to have ornate enamel panels which did a similar sort of thing.

[Liam]

Hi John,

 

Glad to hear you're OK and you found the problem before it could do any real damage...

 

We had exactly the same problem on my parents old boat. It had a tiled surround behind the stove, and not really enough room between that and the back of the Brunel stove. On Saturday afternoon I was playing pool in the pub. My Dad went back to the boat and saw whisps of smoke coming up from behind the stove so automatically called me for help.

 

We panicked, and started to try and remove the tiles, which were fixed on plywood from behind the stove. We only managed to get it away from the side of the boat by around 4 - 6 inches and it wouldn't move much more than that. The problem we then caused was giving the smouldering plywood oxygen, which then caused it to turn into flames. Luckily, as we'd drained the tank we had bottled water to hand, which of course got chucked everywhere behind the stove!

 

We had tiles on plywood which was then covering ther rockwool insulation. We ripped the whole lot out and which created a large empty space behind the stove which we then lined with fireproof board.

 

Very scary.

[dacaB]

in my case I trusted the boat builder to install the fire properly.

 

Clearly the stove was not installed properly.................Is there a legal obligation for the BB to fit the stove in a manner that makes it safe to use. If so, for how long does the fitting have to remain safe......

[rjasmith]

I do have 2 smoke alarm but caught the fire before they kicked in. My point is that numpties like myself are unaware of what constitutes proper instalation in my case I trusted the boat builder to install the fire properly.

 

John,

 

I'm also glad you were able to avert a disaster!!

 

I'm one of the few people who seem to be putting together comments as individuals to go into the British Standard Draft Code of Practice. We need more of you to have a go at this!!! The document can be read section by section and comments entered if you register here. (Gary's link to the pdf file for the CoP in the original thread seems not to work now but if anyone wants it PM me). Comments must be in by 30 April.

 

If you look there now you can see all the comments to date.

 

It is not an ISO - yet(!) - and is currently only an all British initiative.

 

If it became an ISO it would then be likely to be adopted by the RCD and would become mandatory for new (commercially built) boats (and home builds for those electing to work to the RCD).

 

Also, the BSS could adopt it and then it could be compulsory for all boats.

 

My view is that there definitely should be a standard of some sort to try to reduce the risks of incidents like yours and any document should take account of the best common sense practices that have evolved for boats over the years.

 

Unfortunately the current draft CoP appears to have been cobbled together by much plagiarising of the household Building Regs Part J (In one or two cases bits have even been incorrectly copied ). As a result some of the proposals are completely impractical for use on a boat - very safe but very silly IMHO!

 

The big snag with the current draft is that it could threaten the boatmans cabin stove in both historic boats and new build replicas for those who like them (as I do).

 

There are parts of it where I think it is possible to do what they are proposing and this is particularly in the shielding of surrounding wood work from the stove (ie where you had a problem). With a few minor edits, the CoP words on this seem practical to me. They specify either fireproof board plus an airgap fixed to the wood with spacers or a metal shield with a ventilated air gap similarly fixed. Tiles can be fixed to either form of shield but never just straight on to wood unless you have an enormous space surrounding the stove.

 

Another thing I've done is had a chat with various stove firms eg Aarrow and Morso. both think just lifting the Part J words is not going to work and are working to get the CoP changed. Also HETAS are commenting. (In fact Morso want to see the Building Regs changed to include some aspects of good boat practice!!).

 

Morso also said they believed there might be some sort of exception made for boatman's cabin stoves - we live in hope!

 

Richard

[cotswoldsman]

Clearly the stove was not installed properly.................Is there a legal obligation for the BB to fit the stove in a manner that makes it safe to use. If so, for how long does the fitting have to remain safe......

 

The BB came and istalled a new bulkhead and fireboard and retiled they were there for 3 days and did a great job, shame they had not done that when they built the boat. I was also offered hotel accomidation while the work was done, the problem seems to be there is no standard for fire fitting and I think the problem is that BB do not take into account liveaboards who have the fire going non stop for up to 7 months.

[NB Alnwick]

The BB came and istalled a new bulkhead and fireboard and retiled they were there for 3 days and did a great job, shame they had not done that when they built the boat. I was also offered hotel accomidation while the work was done, the problem seems to be there is no standard for fire fitting and I think the problem is that BB do not take into account liveaboards who have the fire going non stop for up to 7 months.

 

Well Done that boatbuilder - nice to hear of someone who responds positively and effectivly.

 

Sorry to hear that you had the problem in the first place but at least you now know that it has been fixed.

[blackrose]

I would never have a tiled fire surround again

 

It's not the tiles themselves which are the problem - it's the lack of any heatproof lining (and also the fact that stoves are often placed far too near to walls or fixed furniture). Tiles can always be laid over masterboard or another heatproof lining, but because these materials are generally very porus they should be primed with a coat of PVA or porus surface tile primer first.

 

I've used hammered copper effect anodised aluminium sheets over the masterboard with 2" square tavertine border tiles around the edges. The tiles were stuck on to the masterboard with heat resistant silicone.

Edited April 16, 2009 by blackrose

[Smelly]

Since I read Gary's stove thread and commented, I've read a couple of MAIB reports and have ended up completely gobsmacked at the fact that it seems standard practice to tile over ply around a fire. Maybe, because I'm from a wooden boat background I'm a bit more paranoid than most but it seems sheer madness to put a big hot thing in intimate surroundings with nobut tiles and ply surrounding it.

 

I thought, until the last few days, that it was standard practice to use some form of glass board behind the tiles but evidently it's not.

 

Nevermind wandering around with a neon screwdriver, I think I'll not be kipping on people's boats unless I've checked there's some glassboard insulating the kindling fire surround.

 

On a different note, we really should be reading the draft CoP on istalling fires. I'm sure people will be moved to comment once you've read the sheer madness of what's propsed.

[Guest]

Since I read Gary's stove thread and commented, I've read a couple of MAIB reports and have ended up completely gobsmacked at the fact that it seems standard practice to tile over ply around a fire. Maybe, because I'm from a wooden boat background I'm a bit more paranoid than most but it seems sheer madness to put a big hot thing in intimate surroundings with nobut tiles and ply surrounding it.

 

I thought, until the last few days, that it was standard practice to use some form of glass board behind the tiles but evidently it's not.

 

Nevermind wandering around with a neon screwdriver, I think I'll not be kipping on people's boats unless I've checked there's some glassboard insulating the kindling fire surround.

 

On a different note, we really should be reading the draft CoP on istalling fires. I'm sure people will be moved to comment once you've read the sheer madness of what's propsed.

I agree with much of that. It is because of so many intallers failing to use fireboard, that we find ourselves facing legislation. Our boat safety inspector claims that his own friends boat had scorching problems behind the tiles.

[Proper Job]

............ I think the problem is that BB do not take into account liveaboards who have the fire going non stop for up to 7 months...........

To be honest, this should be immaterial. Irrespective of the usage pattern, the fire shouldn't scorch the board that surrounds it.

 

It's not the tiles themselves which are the problem - it's the lack of any heatproof lining (and also the fact that stoves are often placed far too near to walls or fixed furniture). Tiles can always be laid over masterboard or another heatproof lining, but because these materials are generally very porus they should be primed with a coat of PVA or porus surface tile primer first.

 

I've used hammered copper effect anodised aluminium sheets over the masterboard with 2" square tavertine border tiles around the edges. The tiles were stuck on to the masterboard with heat resistant silicone.

I wasn't saying that tiles were a problem, and people who have tiled fire surrounds should not be unnecessarily worried. I would be prudent to try to confirm what is behind the tiles though.

 

If its similar to what you've advised above - great.

 

If it's just plywood and your stove is very close to the surround, maybe its time to evaluate/change the installation.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Proper Job

[blackrose]

I wasn't saying that tiles were a problem, and people who have tiled fire surrounds should not be unnecessarily worried. I would be prudent to try to confirm what is behind the tiles though.

 

If its similar to what you've advised above - great.

 

If it's just plywood and your stove is very close to the surround, maybe its time to evaluate/change the installation.

 

Agreed

[ditchcrawler]

the person who originally fitted the stove on my boat bolted a sheet of 1/8 inch thick stainless steel to the back of the stove, on spacers so it stands about 1 inch behind and it has a slightly bigger outline than the stove itself. it stops the tiles behind the stove getting hot.

 

Seems like quite a good idea to me. only takes up an inch but makes a big difference by introducing an air gap and a heat reflector. old house stoves used to have ornate enamel panels which did a similar sort of thing.

That is basically what Dickinson recommend

 

To be honest, luck doesn't currently come in to it. But it had in the past.

 

A previous boat of mine had some tiles fall off from behind the stove. Behind the tiles I found scorched ply. I was never overly happy with the space behind the stove (It just had enough room for the pipes to exit from the back boiler). This was subsequently ripped out and replaced with painted fire board.

 

Ocelot has plenty of room (in my opinion) around the stove and has painted fire board around it (if anything is going to be scorched, I want to see it happening). Add to that, two smoke alarms and two CO alarms.

 

I would never have a tiled fire surround again

I tiled on top of the fire "master" board

[valrene9600]

Reading about stove problems has made me think. I don`t know for sure what is behind the tiles around my stove and reading that they could well be just stuck on the wood panels alarms me so what i want advice on is:

Would it be adequate to add tiles on top of the existing tiles just in case there`s no fireproof board behind. I am thinking of trying to ease off one of the existing tiles to see what is behind but am worried it might break.

 

Right hold everything as i have just been to look and have managed to lever forward slightly the whole section of tiles and can just make out a piece of whiteish board behind the tiles so all seems ok.

 

But still i ask perhaps for others on the forum who might want to add tiles just in case.....would it be adequate an extra layer of tiles.

[BlueStringPudding]

On the advice of several very helpful chaps and chapesses on this forum, when I built our stove surround I lined the bulkhead and wall with fireproof masterboard, filled the joins with fireproof sealant and filled the gap behind the board under the gunwhale with rockwool. Then I tiled on top of that. Plus the tiling goes right up to the ceiling.

 

The chap who installed our stove onto it said he'd never seen such a safe fire surround that ticked all the precaution boxes! (I think he said it slightly tongue-in-cheek because it was over-the-top safe) I hope he's right!

Edited April 16, 2009 by BlueStringPudding

[Theo]

Reading about stove problems has made me think. I don`t know for sure what is behind the tiles around my stove and reading that they could well be just stuck on the wood panels alarms me so what i want advice on is:

Would it be adequate to add tiles on top of the existing tiles just in case there`s no fireproof board behind. I am thinking of trying to ease off one of the existing tiles to see what is behind but am worried it might break.

 

Right hold everything as i have just been to look and have managed to lever forward slightly the whole section of tiles and can just make out a piece of whiteish board behind the tiles so all seems ok.

 

But still i ask perhaps for others on the forum who might want to add tiles just in case.....would it be adequate an extra layer of tiles.

I read a report on the death of a woman on a boat which went on fire. I can't remember the name of the boat. Someone will come up with it.

 

One thing that the report commented on was the fact that tiles are very poor insulators so adding tile on tile will not necessarily work as well as you might hope. Insulate with masterboard first and then tile on top.

 

The arrangement on Theodora which I adopted when I fitted the new stove is to install vertical battens about 3/4" thick and mount the Masterboard on that with a gap top and bottom to allow convection to cool the back of the MB. On top of the MB SWMBO has done the tiles. We could not find flexible tile cement so we used the ordinary stuff. The tiles have stayed in pace for the nine months of last years Grand Tour of about 2000 miles so I suspect that they will remain stuck.

 

 

 

On the advice of several very helpful chaps and chapesses on this forum, when I built our stove surround I lined the bulkhead and wall with fireproof masterboard, filled the joins with fireproof sealant and filled the gap behind the board under the gunwhale with rockwool. Then I tiled on top of that. Plus the tiling goes right up to the ceiling.

 

The chap who installed our stove onto it said he'd never seen such a safe fire surround that ticked all the precaution boxes! (I think he said it slightly tongue-in-cheek because it was over-the-top safe) I hope he's right!

 

I have to say that, although BSP's setup seems a good one I do prefer to have the air gap to allow the back of the Masterboard to disperse heat.

 

Nick

[RLWP]

That would be Lindy Lou. MAIB report pdf

 

Richard

Edited April 16, 2009 by RLWP

[Theo]

That would be Lindy Lou. MAIB report pdf

 

Richard

 

That's the one. Well worth a read. I am glad that I saw the report before I installed the stove.

 

N