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Gardner 4LW difficult to start


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A friend's 4LW is proving a bit of a reluctant beast, it will start and when it starts it runs well but.... it is a right pig to get going.

 

It seemed to me yesterday that it wasn't turning fast enough, it sounded laboured. And that with the decompressors open.

 

It has had, in recent months, a starter motor overhaul, a new alternator, new batteries and some engine work (I'll get more details on this today)

 

I'm going round today to help, my immediate thoughts; try a bigger battery and try it on 24V.

 

So my questions;

 

What should i be looking for?

Has anyone any suggestions or ideas as to what to test?

 

What size of starter battery should it have?

Is there a possibility it has a 24V starter motor fitted, if so how can i tell?

 

Could a Gardner turning over normally be described as 'sluggish'? or is this an indication of a problem?

 

Odd snippet; he was told be a Gardner expert that it would turn over faster in gear and it does? Why?

 

 

Thanks for any help.

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I have a 2LW in my boat. I've not had it too long so I'm still getting to know it. But I have noticed that, while it starts happily and fairly quickly in warm weather, it is much more difficult on colder weather - to the extent that it flattened the starter battery and burned out the starter motor last winter - not cheap!

Enter local all-purpose practical gnome who has a look, grunts a few times, then takes the top off the air filter and directs a blowlamp down the 'ole for five minutes. Result: engine growls a bit then turns over and starts. (Subsidiary result, couple of free pints for gnome).

The difficulty is, I think, caused or at least exacerbated by the Gardner being to old a design to have pre-heaters. This autumn I'm making sure that I run the engine evry few days until it's really warm (about 2 hours); that way, even if we're not taking the boat out, the engine never gets profoundly cold. It's worked so far!

Coda: Gnome's further wisdom: if you've got a can of Quickstart or similar, throw it away.

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This autumn I'm making sure that I run the engine evry few days until it's really warm (about 2 hours); that way, even if we're not taking the boat out, the engine never gets profoundly cold. It's worked so far!

I'm not fortunate enough to have such a beast so don't know that that much about them.

 

Is it possible to use the sump heaters which are used in really cold climates? I'm sure there must be versions available which don't require altering the sump etc.

 

I know nothing about this particular heater and am only using it as an example.

http://www.wolverineheater.com/

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A friend's 4LW is proving a bit of a reluctant beast, it will start and when it starts it runs well but.... it is a right pig to get going.

 

It seemed to me yesterday that it wasn't turning fast enough, it sounded laboured. And that with the decompressors open.

 

It has had, in recent months, a starter motor overhaul, a new alternator, new batteries and some engine work (I'll get more details on this today)

 

I'm going round today to help, my immediate thoughts; try a bigger battery and try it on 24V.

 

So my questions;

 

What should i be looking for?

Has anyone any suggestions or ideas as to what to test?

 

What size of starter battery should it have?

Is there a possibility it has a 24V starter motor fitted, if so how can i tell?

 

Could a Gardner turning over normally be described as 'sluggish'? or is this an indication of a problem?

 

Odd snippet; he was told be a Gardner expert that it would turn over faster in gear and it does? Why?

 

 

Thanks for any help.

 

They don't turn over quickly by modern standards, but a well-maintained Gardner should start very readily.

 

Is he using the 'excess fuel' start button (on the end of the fuel pump)?

If very cold, using the priming levers on the fuel pump will help.

 

The starter voltage should be stamped into the body, might need to take it off and maybe scrape off some paint to find it. If the usual BS5 there might be a stamped label just below the electrical terminals, but that may well have gone missing or never have been there.

 

Warm air into the intake can certainly help, but shouldn't be needed if it's in decent order.

 

Tim

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Enter local all-purpose practical gnome who has a look, grunts a few times, then takes the top off the air filter and directs a blowlamp down the 'ole for five minutes. Result: engine growls a bit then turns over and starts.

 

Yes, thanks for that Athy, I should have mentioned above that a blowlamp is part of the SOP and the engine is run fairly often, but maybe we could try a more intensive blow lamp treatment.

 

One thing i had thought, but is not the case is that maybe it was being used for battery charging only but this is also not the case.

Edited by Chris Pink
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One very effective way of introducing heat into a cold engine is to fit a Thermostart – a device that sends a squirt of burning diesel into the air intake. It works very well on a Kelvin and I’ve seen one successfully fitted to an Armstrong. Don’t know enough about a Gardner, though. There's one on ebay at the moment http://tinyurl.com/697ukr .

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They don't turn over quickly by modern standards, but a well-maintained Gardner should start very readily.

 

Is he using the 'excess fuel' start button (on the end of the fuel pump)?

If very cold, using the priming levers on the fuel pump will help.

 

The starter voltage should be stamped into the body, might need to take it off and maybe scrape off some paint to find it. If the usual BS5 there might be a stamped label just below the electrical terminals, but that may well have gone missing or never have been there.

 

Thanks Tim that's a couple of possibilities.

 

It is the fact that it is a well maintained engine that is puzzling me.

 

He was told that if it doesn't start readily to purge the diesel in the cylinders by turning over for a while with 'stop' engaged and the decompressors open to avoid hydraulic lock - though my National starts best when you can hear the diesel sloshing around inside.

 

One very effective way of introducing heat into a cold engine is to fit a Thermostart – a device that sends a squirt of burning diesel into the air intake. It works very well on a Kelvin and I’ve seen one successfully fitted to an Armstrong. Don’t know enough about a Gardner, though. There's one on ebay at the moment http://tinyurl.com/697ukr .

 

I've seen a few Perkins fitted with these, bit of fitting involved though if the manifold is not designed for it.

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Thanks Tim that's a couple of possibilities.

 

It is the fact that it is a well maintained engine that is puzzling me.

 

He was told that if it doesn't start readily to purge the diesel in the cylinders by turning over for a while with 'stop' engaged and the decompressors open to avoid hydraulic lock - though my National starts best when you can hear the diesel sloshing around inside.

 

What size and how long are his starter cables? They need to be bigger than for a typical modern nb engine.

 

 

Tim

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What size and how long are his starter cables? They need to be bigger than for a typical modern nb engine.

 

 

Tim

 

It is one of the questions on my list, my initial diagnosis was not enough power. I know what you mean by slower than a modern engine but it did sound distinctly sluggish - and it's the easiest thing to test!

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They don't turn over quickly by modern standards, but a well-maintained Gardner should start very readily.

 

Is he using the 'excess fuel' start button (on the end of the fuel pump)?

If very cold, using the priming levers on the fuel pump will help.

 

The starter voltage should be stamped into the body, might need to take it off and maybe scrape off some paint to find it. If the usual BS5 there might be a stamped label just below the electrical terminals, but that may well have gone missing or never have been there.

 

Warm air into the intake can certainly help, but shouldn't be needed if it's in decent order.

 

Tim

 

I have a very early (1934) 3LW with 24V starter motor.

It starts OK when cold, even in a frost after standing for a month,

 

When I first got the boat 2 years ago I had a HOT starting problem.

When cold it started OK but after a couple of hours running it turned over sluggishly as though the battery was down.

This was eventually traced to the starter motor itself. It had a partially seized bearing which after an overhaul by Whyatts of Stapleford has been OK.

 

If you do need test/repair work on your starter motor and are close enough to Derby/Nottingham I can recommend Whyatts. Phone 01159-390634.

Edited by andywatson
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Hi,

 

It is doubtful that a 4LW will have a 12 volt starter motor and you will need 2 good 110amp batteries to turn it over when you have found out what voltage it is.

 

The excess fuel button is a good tip, but be careful pressing it- it only needs one push.

 

Not sure about it starting more easily in gear, best to keep it out of gear.

 

A 4LW in a narrowboat is really too big an engine and it does not work hard enough, may be choked with carbon by too much slow running.

 

Are you opening the throttle enough prior to starting the engine.

 

Buy a workshop manual and place an enquiry on the www.gardner-enthusiast.com forum, where a wealth of experience will be at your fingertips.

 

The weather is not really cold enough to make starting a Gardner difficult, I have seen a 6L2 fitted with small cups under the air inlets which can be filled with meths to facilitate easy starting in cold weather and that engine started by hand in April.

 

Is the engine stop button fully dis-engaged?.

 

I would suspect too much slow running has affected the injectors, might be worth having the serviced as these big engines struggle to get up to satisfactory working temperature on canals.

 

Shall be interested to hear how you get on.

 

Albi.

Edited by LEO
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Hi,

 

It is doubtful that a 4LW will have a 12 volt starter motor and you will need 2 good 110amp batteries to turn it over when you have found out what voltage it is.

 

The excess fuel button is a good tip, but be careful pressing it- it only needs one push.

 

Not sure about it starting more easily in gear, best to keep it out of gear.

 

A 4LW in a narrowboat is really too big an engine and it does not work hard enough, may be choked with carbon by too much slow running.

 

Are you opening the throttle enough prior to starting the engine.

 

Buy a workshop manual and place an enquiry on the www.gardner-enthusiast.com forum, where a wealth of experience will be at your fingertips.

 

The weather is not really cold enough to make starting a Gardner difficult, I have seen a 6L2 fitted with small cups under the air inlets which can be filled with meths to facilitate easy starting in cold weather and that engine started by hand in April.

 

Is the engine stop button fully dis-engaged?.

 

I would suspect too much slow running has affected the injectors, might be worth having the serviced as these big engines struggle to get up to satisfactory working temperature on canals.

 

Shall be interested to hear how you get on.

 

Albi.

 

Much useful there Albi, thanks.

 

I have another piece of information to throw in the pot; another friend with a 4LW has heard this engine and it turns over much slower than hers.

 

so supplementary question; i will check 24V starter and cables and battery size but is there any mechanical reason why the engine would turn over slow?

Edited by Chris Pink
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Hi,

 

It is doubtful that a 4LW will have a 12 volt starter motor

 

Albi.

 

Why?

 

I used to have one, it came with 12V starter, also seen them on 6LWs.

Edited to say I agree that if it's in a nb the engine will never do any real work, and if the pistons have been out the rings might never have got properly bedded in.

That wouldn't explain the slow turning, though.

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech
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Mr. Nibble,

As mentioned above I havn't had my gardner that long and am still learning how to get the best out of it. Also I'm notoriously non-technically minded - so tips like the one which you offer here are gratefully received.

But, two queries:

1) I have always been told to put the throttle on about half power when starting an engine. I have never (of course) known why, but have slavishly followed the advice. Why would Gardners differ from other engines in this respect?

2) One poster on this thread suggests starting the engine whilst it's in gear; doesn't this do the engine or gearbox a mischief?

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Fit another battery in parallel with the original.. Bigger engines need bigger batteries, the installation manual for my own engine recommended the use of two 110 a/h batteries, being a bit mean I managed with one except for a very few very cold days in winter..

 

I did however always have a small jumper lead constantly available to enable a quick 'jump' onto the domestics.

Edited by John Orentas
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I used to have a tractor that was very slow to turn over and difficult to start when cold. It turned out that it had been frozen and that had distorted the block. It would go ok eventually, usually with a quick sniff of easy start, but always ran a bit on the hot side!

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I would reiterate the point about the excess fuel button, and add the proviso that gardners should be started with the throttle set at idle otherwise the injection timing is advanced. Suggest volt drop tests starting with battery "on load" readings.

 

The trouble with starting on idle is that the fuel rack might not go fully across, also if the engine does fire it'll quickly go back & allow the excess fuel button to drop before the engine is running properly. I'd suggest having the speed control part way open.

When pressing the excess fuel button up, hold the other end of the fuel rack over to the right and you will feel the button allowing the rack to move further.

Not all LWs have the timing advance connected, especially if they were originally built for an application with a fixed or limited speed range.

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech
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Hi all, update time

 

first, it's not a 4LW it's a 4LK, my mistaken assumption, sorry.

 

Interesting about the throttle not being fully up, we assumed would be best fully open.

 

Starter motor clearly marked 12V.

 

There has been a bit of an adjournment to obtain another large fully charged battery. He has been commoning with the domestics (new) but of course they will not have so much in them.

 

Sir N: when you say 'volts drop test' what voltage am i looking for, or shall I just do it and report back?

 

The fuel system seems to work OK, proper pressure on the priming levers, sound ok, grey smoke (though not loads) out of the exhaust. Priming done (10 squirts) and the excess fuel button operating the rack OK

 

No cough or nearly starting just no firing at all.

 

A few tweaks to the cabling, bypassing one of those durite switches and running another -ve to the engine has produced a bit of extra speed though maybe not enough to fire but definitely worth doing.

 

He has been told the following by a 'Gardner expert' though this individual diagnosed (wrongly) duff starter motor and then disappeared without solving the problem.

 

That has should, for each 5 second starting attempt, put the stop lever to 'stop' open the decompressor (to 6 o'clock, there is a starting position at 12 o'clock and run is at 9 o'clock) and run for 5 burst of 10 secs to 'purge' any excess diesel.

 

He does believe that this works as the engine is most likely to start after this.

 

Thoughts?

 

My initial reaction is that this is just a way of turning the engine for a long time and when i have another battery ready this is what i will try.

 

other pieces of information; when running it runs well, no cutting out, comes up to temperature after a couple of hours. If stopped briefly will start again easily when warm. Will not run the next day.

 

When he first got the boat the engine started readily but got steadily worse until he took the actions of replacing the batteries and re-conditioning the starter motor (which was said to be in good nick when examined)

 

So as i say the next step is to get a lot more reserve battery power and run it in starting mode for a minute or two to try and persuade it to start.

 

after that.....

 

 

Any recommendations for a Gardner engineer within travelling distance of Bath?

Edited by Chris Pink
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Volt drop tests.

Connect meter across battery and read volts, (12V ish)

Crank engine and see what voltage is under load, above 10V hopefully.

Connect meter from batt +ve to starter +ve and crank, less than .25V we hope.

Same again batt -ve to starter -ve.

come back with those readings.

As for the cold start excess fuel device, if it's not an LW I dunno!

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Hi all, update time

 

first, it's not a 4LW it's a 4LK, my mistaken assumption, sorry.

 

That doesn't really alter most of what's been suggested.

 

He has been told the following by a 'Gardner expert' though this individual diagnosed (wrongly) duff starter motor and then disappeared without solving the problem.

 

That has should, for each 5 second starting attempt, put the stop lever to 'stop' open the decompressor (to 6 o'clock, there is a starting position at 12 o'clock and run is at 9 o'clock) and run for 5 burst of 10 secs to 'purge' any excess diesel.

 

He does believe that this works as the engine is most likely to start after this.

 

Thoughts?

 

My initial reaction is that this is just a way of turning the engine for a long time and when i have another battery ready this is what i will try.

 

other pieces of information; when running it runs well, no cutting out, comes up to temperature after a couple of hours. If stopped briefly will start again easily when warm. Will not run the next day.

 

When he first got the boat the engine started readily but got steadily worse until he took the actions of replacing the batteries and re-conditioning the starter motor (which was said to be in good nick when examined)

 

So as i say the next step is to get a lot more reserve battery power and run it in starting mode for a minute or two to try and persuade it to start.

 

after that.....

 

I can't work out what you're suggesting over the decompressor positions.

L2s and some early LWs had three decompressor positions, they have a second Closed position which leaves greater valve clearances which boosts the compression ratio for cold starting. I've never seen that on an LK, they just have 'open' and 'closed' like the later LWs

Any benefit is probably just the extra bit of excercise the engine is getting.

 

It sounds to me as though the solution is most likely to be found in the electrics.

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech
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That doesn't really alter most of what's been suggested.

 

 

 

I can't work out what you're suggesting over the decompressor positions.

L2s and some early LWs had three decompressor positions, they have a second Closed position which leaves greater valve clearances which boosts the compression ratio for cold starting. I've never seen that on an LK, they just have 'open' and 'closed' like the later LWs

Any benefit is probably just the extra bit of excercise the engine is getting.

 

It sounds to me as though the solution is most likely to be found in the electrics.

 

Tim

 

The decompressor has a centre position 'run' where there is obviously no cam operating turn it one way and it lifts something turn it the other way and it still lifts something but with less resistence.

 

i know, i know.... RTFM

 

back soon......

 

 

btw i think you're right about the electrics.

Edited by Chris Pink
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Hi,

 

All my manuals are for LW's sorry!, I suppose no air is getting into the fuel system can you bleed it as easily as an LW?. It's still worth looking for a fuel enrichment plunger, they are quite well hidden away.

But turning it over with a well charged battery bank will help.

It's unusal as Gardners normally start on the button.

 

Albi

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This autumn I'm making sure that I run the engine evry few days until it's really warm (about 2 hours); that way, even if we're not taking the boat out, the engine never gets profoundly cold. It's worked so far!

 

 

 

Seems a bit of a waste of engine hours and fuel to run the engine like that.

 

Have you considered some kind of heater as suggested by other posters or.........

 

If you don't want the expense or hassle to buy and install some kind of proper sump heater jobbie why not consider or even try the following cheap alternatives:

 

1 If you have mains power

 

1.1 Small electric anti frost radiator or greehouse heater sitting below your engine.

Cover the engine with an old duvet or blanket to trap more heat.

 

1.2 Mega cheap. Maybe less than £1!

Put a 100w (or smaller) light bulb under your engine.

Increase it's heat transfer by cobbling up a tin reflector so it shines against the engine and sit it on a bit of fireboard to insulate against the baseplate.

 

1.3 Rob an electric blanket from home and put that over your engine.

They don't use much power.

Of course the wife won't approve but you can warm the bed yourselves.................

 

If you don't have mains power

 

2.1 Small paraffin greenhouse heater under the sump as above.

They cost about £25 and supposedly run for 1 week on a gallon of fuel.

Of course you'll need good ventilation.

I seem to remember my grandad used to put something similar under his car engine.

 

I'm sure others can add refinements to the above.

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