Butty stern...?

[carlt]

which ever way around'' the lower pintle needs to be longer.

Something the builders of butties failed to note.

 

I've spent many a pleasant hour trying to lift a heavy elum back onto it's stern post, after riding over a sunken obstacle (more than once a pile of shopping trolleys, in the Rugby Tesco bridgehole).

[RLWP]

Just got the impression people were saying this is how it's done, not like that. Yes discuss away, this is a discussion forum

 

It's a little more than that. It is more like "this is how it's done and why, not like that because"

 

Richard

[bizzard]

Something the builders of butties failed to note.

 

I've spent many a pleasant hour trying to lift a heavy elum back onto it's stern post, after riding over a sunken obstacle (more than once a pile of shopping trolleys, in the Rugby Tesco bridgehole).

You can imagine on a fast sailing dinghy what happens if the rudder becomes unshipped,so its imperative that its re-shipped as quick as possible.Although we used a light spring metal or plastic thumb press retainer on the lower pintle to prevent it jumping off which was light enough to break if the rudder received a heavy blow and jump off with no damage.Also a short lanyard from transom to rudder cheek to prevent the whole assembly from floating away.

[Chertsey]

Are you sure about that Carl? My understanding is that the elum is the wooden tiller bar and would be a corruption of helm, as spoken by working boatmen, rather like Josher was a corruption of Joshua. It's interesting trying to get to the bottom of these definitions though.

Roger

I agree that elum could well be a corruption of helm, but it wouldn't make sense not to have specific terms for the specific parts. I am sure I have seen references to removing the butty tiller from the elum or from the ram's head in books about working boats. No way is elum just the tiller, otherwise why would it only be used in references to butties (and horse boats), not motor boats?

 

I love learning new words.

[Magic Potion]

Elum or Ellum ............ Combined rudder and tiller of a butty boat.

From Jim Sheads' site.

[carlt]

Elum or Ellum ............ Combined rudder and tiller of a butty boat.

From Jim Sheads' site.

But where did he get his information from? (though he is correct, in my opinion)

[pete harrison]

Rudder - The big blade in the water.

 

Tiller - The stick that the steerer hangs on to.

 

Ram's Head - the Big upright post linking tiller to rudder.

 

Elum - The whole lot.

 

is my understanding.

 

This is also my understanding. Having said that I have always found the word "elum" a bit awkward so I tend to say the "buttys 'elm'" - unless of course it is a horse boat

 

In addition to the above I call the horizontal pieces that hold the rudder blade planks together "float boards" (often covered with canvas belting), and the decorative ropework that sometimes runs from the top of the "Rams Head" down to the "Float Boards" a "Swans Neck". I have also heard the motor boats 'Z' shaped tiller referred to as both a "Rams Head" and a "Swans Neck", but I prefer "tiller" with the removable end piece simply being a part of the "tiller" and so sharing its name.

[Chris Pink]

Also a motor rudder won't lift off when you stick it on the cill, so how is this any different?

 

Yes, that's exactly what it's designed to do.

 

Not only the cill but any underwater obstruction

[AJLintern]

Are you saying it does lift off? I'm confused Would it not get jammed under the counter in some way...?

[RLWP]

Are you saying it does lift off? I'm confused Would it not get jammed under the counter in some way...?

 

It does lift off. The horizontal bit at the bottom is the skeg, which is a part of the hull. There is a pintle at the bottom of the helm that pivots on the end of the skeg

 

Richard

[AJLintern]

But it surely can't lift very far before something jams up? What I mean is that it can't lift all the way off like a butty rudder can.

[RLWP]

But it surely can't lift very far before something jams up? What I mean is that it can't lift all the way off like a butty rudder can.

 

Why?

 

 

Richard

Edited May 22, 2012 by RLWP

[BuckbyLocks]

But it surely can't lift very far before something jams up? What I mean is that it can't lift all the way off like a butty rudder can.

 

It doesn't need to lift very far to make it unuseable and if it drops on your hand it will hurt, particularly if it is above the slide rails.

I think Admiral Motors have a retaining ring on the skeg which prevents the rudder lifting.

[Albion]

But it surely can't lift very far before something jams up? What I mean is that it can't lift all the way off like a butty rudder can.

As I understand it and with trad top bearings you can remove the swan's neck, lift the rudder and stock, move the stock to one side of the skeg and then lower the rudder completely into the water (with sufficient water depth of course). I believe that this used to be done with a rope through the typical hole in the tip of the blade so that the whole thing could be recovered from the depths.

Roger

[BuckbyLocks]

As I understand it and with trad top bearings you can remove the swan's neck, lift the rudder and stock, move the stock to one side of the skeg and then lower the rudder completely into the water (with sufficient water depth of course). I believe that this used to be done with a rope through the typical hole in the tip of the blade so that the whole thing could be recovered from the depths.

Roger

 

Yes, but this is a deliberate action and not the result of sitting it on a cill or hitting a shopping trolley. The key word is 'sufficient depth of water'.

[carlt]

The key word is 'sufficient depth of water'.

Well they managed it when they stole Usk's rudder, sat in less than 3' of water.

[alan_fincher]

Why?

I think he is referring to the ability of a "normal" motor rudder to lift out, not on that boat he first posted the pictures of ?

[Albion]

Yes, but this is a deliberate action and not the result of sitting it on a cill or hitting a shopping trolley. The key word is 'sufficient depth of water'.

But, unlike a butty's rudder, on a motor the whole thing cannot possibly unship totally so what was the point of the question otherwise? If you sit on an obstruction with a motor the stock rises and usually the pintle becomes dislodged from the skeg cup.

Roger

[AJLintern]

I think he is referring to the ability of a "normal" motor rudder to lift out, not on that boat he first posted the pictures of ?

This ^

My original comment referred to the fact that although rudder of the ABC boat bears a passing resemblance to that of a butty, it also has aspects of a motor rudder, so if caught on a cill it may or may not lift off completely, but then neither does a normal motor rudder (unless as said above, you take the tiller off, angle it off the skeg and drop it in sufficient depth of water!)

Clear?

[RLWP]

This ^

My original comment referred to the fact that although rudder of the ABC boat bears a passing resemblance to that of a butty, it also has aspects of a motor rudder, so if caught on a cill it may or may not lift off completely, but then neither does a normal motor rudder (unless as said above, you take the tiller off, angle it off the skeg and drop it in sufficient depth of water!)

Clear?

 

Yes. And from examining the pictures, it looks like the ABC one will lift off, especially as it doesn't pass through the counter

 

Richard

[carlt]

Yes. And from examining the pictures, it looks like the ABC one will lift off

I can see that lump under the counter making it a bugger to get back on, in the water, too.

[AJLintern]

I suspect the sheer weight of it would make it very awkward in itself!

[Chris Pink]

Yes, but this is a deliberate action and not the result of sitting it on a cill or hitting a shopping trolley. The key word is 'sufficient depth of water'.

Whether or not there is depth of water the rudder can be lifted out of the skeg cup, then it is free to drop to one side of the skeg. The swan's neck would normally stop it dropping out. If you remove the swan's neck then obviously you need a depth of water equal to the counter depth to get the stock clear.

 

Not complicated just give it a little thought.

 

How else would you remove the rudder?

[oldironsides]

It doesn't need to lift very far to make it unuseable and if it drops on your hand it will hurt, particularly if it is above the slide rails.

I think Admiral Motors have a retaining ring on the skeg which prevents the rudder lifting.

 

Maybe the Pimblott Admirals are so fitted, but not the Yarwood ones. Guess how I know!

[David Mack]

Am I right in thinking some butties were motorised by fitting a hydraulic motor and propeller onto the 'board post and stick bit at the back that steers the boat'*?

 

Clicky

 

 

David