Continuos Cruising

[Bartleby Scrivener]

I have been searching around this subject for a while and don't mean to start a massive argument, but I can't work out what the requirements are because they are so badly written.

“Place” in this context means a neighbourhood or locality.

 

Is surely doublespeak? I ask because I would like to live on a boat, moving at least once a week, off the top of my head say a 5 mile trip each week. I would like to stay within 25 miles of my workplace which is literally on the Grand Union so that would give me a stretch of 50 miles. This was just an idea of what would be a nice way to live, but I can't work out if this is acceptable or at what point it becomes unacceptable. It is obviously a big undertaking and I don't want to have to buy the boat and start boating to find out what the canal people mean by neighbourhood or place or locality. It's putting me off all ready. I can afford a mooring anyway if necessary but I don't want to have to be on the mooring as that kind of defeats the point for me and I would rather have a flat overlooking the water in that case. I like the idea of a different view and neighbours at least once a week.

[matty40s]

. " It's putting me off all ready."

 

good.

It is worth researching on this forum, many different threads will give you lots of information.

The rules and regs are being changed by CaRT although this may not be legally enforceable.

Get a mooring for the first 12 months and work out your plan, then decide whether CC-ing is achievable and workable in your chosen locations.

[Jerra]

I thought the paragraph further down the guidance made it reasonably clear.

 

 

What constitutes a „neighbourhood‟ will vary from area to area – on a rural waterway a village or hamlet may

be a neighbourhood and on an urban waterway a suburb or district within a town or city may be a

neighbourhood. A sensible and pragmatic judgement needs to be made.

I would have thought looking at a map of say Birmingham that Selly Oak would be one neighbourhood and Edgbaston the next (NB I have just chosen what I think are neighbourhoods I don't know the area well enough to know if the canals actually go there).

In the country it seems even easier - just look for the nearest named habitation and you are in that neighbourhood.

Just my interpretation, I will be interested to see what others think.

[Ex- Member]

 

I thought the paragraph further down the guidance made it reasonably clear.

 

 

What constitutes a „neighbourhood‟ will vary from area to area – on a rural waterway a village or hamlet may

be a neighbourhood and on an urban waterway a suburb or district within a town or city may be a

neighbourhood. A sensible and pragmatic judgement needs to be made.

I would have thought looking at a map of say Birmingham that Selly Oak would be one neighbourhood and Edgbaston the next (NB I have just chosen what I think are neighbourhoods I don't know the area well enough to know if the canals actually go there).

In the country it seems even easier - just look for the nearest named habitation and you are in that neighbourhood.

Just my interpretation, I will be interested to see what others think.

 

Exactly how I read it, I really can't see what's complicated. On the parts of the canals & river I know quite well it's very simple, and would rarely involve moving more than a couple of miles to comply, and in many cases less than that. The likelihood is that we would want to move much further and more often than the new rules require anyway. I am unsure though of a single journey distance, as of course going back and forth in a short distance is pushing it a bit.

[Hastings]

 

I thought the paragraph further down the guidance made it reasonably clear.

 

 

What constitutes a „neighbourhood‟ will vary from area to area – on a rural waterway a village or hamlet may

be a neighbourhood and on an urban waterway a suburb or district within a town or city may be a

neighbourhood. A sensible and pragmatic judgement needs to be made.

I would have thought looking at a map of say Birmingham that Selly Oak would be one neighbourhood and Edgbaston the next (NB I have just chosen what I think are neighbourhoods I don't know the area well enough to know if the canals actually go there).

In the country it seems even easier - just look for the nearest named habitation and you are in that neighbourhood.

Just my interpretation, I will be interested to see what others think.

Having seen various comments in all sorts of places, your interpretation sounds pretty good to me. In towns, you'll find a succession of local areas, which were once separate villages or hamlets, and each is probably a different "neighbourhood" within the CRT notes. In more rural areas, I would think it's pretty safe to go roughly by parish boundaries. My understanding is that a CCer is allowed up to 14 days in each neighbourhood, obviously respecting any 24 or 48 hour restrictions. The 14 days, I believe, does include any time spent wherever you moor in that neighbourhood, so if you spend 48 hours on a 48 hour mooring, you've got 12 days elsewhere in total in that neighbourhood. I think that you're not expected to return to that neighbourhood within 28 days. So that may be ok for a neighbourhood in the middle of the 50 mile stretch quoted above, but it does make such an approach problematic, because once you turn round, you'll be back in a neighbourhood you have already moored in before you should be back there.

 

All of that is said somewhat in pedant mode, but the recent court case and CRT comments simply suggest that if you need to moor fairly close to work, then this in itself is simply not compatible with CCing, and the CRT view is probably that you should take a permanent mooring. If you keep moving as you suggest, then you may escape the concerns of CRT for some time, but they may eventually query what you are doing. They do seem to be tightening up in many areas.

[Jerra]

. I think that you're not expected to return to that neighbourhood within 28 days. So that may be ok for a neighbourhood in the middle of the 50 mile stretch quoted above, but it does make such an approach problematic, because once you turn round, you'll be back in a neighbourhood you have already moored in before you should be back there.

As neighbourhoods in urban areas and even in rural areas are reasonably close together surely the turning round problem could be solved by a longer than normal movement - say 10 miles. That would surely take you past a few neighbourhoods and only needs a comparatively short time on the move.

 

I think with care it would be possible to plan cruising in a fairly short distance and still keep to the rules.

[Paul C]

Having seen various comments in all sorts of places, your interpretation sounds pretty good to me. In towns, you'll find a succession of local areas, which were once separate villages or hamlets, and each is probably a different "neighbourhood" within the CRT notes. In more rural areas, I would think it's pretty safe to go roughly by parish boundaries. My understanding is that a CCer is allowed up to 14 days in each neighbourhood, obviously respecting any 24 or 48 hour restrictions. The 14 days, I believe, does include any time spent wherever you moor in that neighbourhood, so if you spend 48 hours on a 48 hour mooring, you've got 12 days elsewhere in total in that neighbourhood. I think that you're not expected to return to that neighbourhood within 28 days. So that may be ok for a neighbourhood in the middle of the 50 mile stretch quoted above, but it does make such an approach problematic, because once you turn round, you'll be back in a neighbourhood you have already moored in before you should be back there.

 

All of that is said somewhat in pedant mode, but the recent court case and CRT comments simply suggest that if you need to moor fairly close to work, then this in itself is simply not compatible with CCing, and the CRT view is probably that you should take a permanent mooring. If you keep moving as you suggest, then you may escape the concerns of CRT for some time, but they may eventually query what you are doing. They do seem to be tightening up in many areas.

 

You can return to place "A" after shorter than 28 days though. I kinda see where you're coming from - say you were in place "A" for 14 days, you need to be out of it and into place B, then place C. But you don't need to stay in places B and C for 14 days - 1 would be enough, maybe less than 1.

[Ex- Member]

I've just done a quick check on the map.

 

From Bath to B.O.A there's 7 places easily defined as neighbourhoods. Bath - Bathampton - Dundus - Calverton - Limply stoke - Avon cliff - Bradford on Avon. All separate neighbourhoods and just 8 miles by road but probably 10/11 miles by canal. Assuming you could get a 14 day mooring at each neighbourhood that gives you 98 days on a stretch of canal no more that 12 miles long. Bike on board every time you move, ride your bike to collect vehicle and bring is closer to boat for next 14 days.

 

Simples

 

Although I would want to move much more that that example.

[Paul C]

The above post is a good example. There's a bunch of principles but its local knowledge (or being able to look at a map and interpret it) which will determine whether a particular spot is a good, or not-so-good, CCing area. For example, the 14 day moorings where you'd want to stop, are they near roads etc? Safe parking? If you're going back and forth in a small area, is there a service point? etc

[Tuscan]

CRT I believe are mapping the canal system Into neighbourhoods which they hope will answer your question, however I suspect they will then seek to enforce using their "no return" rule within x days followed by. £25 per day deterrent charge.

[Ex- Member]

I've knocked C&RT quite a lot and not overly impressed with them overall. however with regard to these new guidelines I reckon they have it exactly right. It really does give no excuse for anyone not moving on in the spirit of the rules unless for other reasons such as breakdown's illness etc

 

Of course It's clearly part of the master plan which many have probably work out by now, but have a good hunch that the new rules/guidelines will be easier to Enforce.

[Ex- Member]

CRT I believe are mapping the canal system Into neighbourhoods which they hope will answer your question, however I suspect they will then seek to enforce using their "no return" rule within x days followed by. £25 per day deterrent charge.

 

You clearly think like me LOL

 

A bit like when governments change boundries for their electoral advantage.

 

C&RT could be very clever here by drawing the boundry lines where it suits them financially. For instance making certain neighbourhoods smaller with no 7 or 14 day moorings within. or am I being paranoid LOL

[Bartleby Scrivener]

Thanks for the helpful posts. It has cleared things up a little but it still worries me that I get a boat made to order and might end up stuck in a marina. It would be much easier if the areas were defined, perhaps I will wait until that happens. Our ideal would be to move a little every day as I am the only one who works. From the impression i'm getting 10 miles a fortnight should easily meet the criteria of 'neighbourhood' but because I have a permanent job the CRT may stop me? I am unaware of restrictions but looking at maps of the canals I like the idea of moving from bishops storford south through london and back up to tring at a slow rate which is I guess a lot more than the 50 miles initially stated and taking the speed of the route mentioned round bath, would take me over a year anyway!

[luctor et emergo]

Dundus? Calverton?

 

Where in the name of Swansea are you on about?

[Hastings]

I've knocked C&RT quite a lot and not overly impressed with them overall. however with regard to these new guidelines I reckon they have it exactly right. It really does give no excuse for anyone not moving on in the spirit of the rules unless for other reasons such as breakdown's illness etc

 

Of course It's clearly part of the master plan which many have probably work out by now, but have a good hunch that the new rules/guidelines will be easier to Enforce.

In spite of what I've written above, I do agree that CRT are moving towards the position that Continuous Cruiser means what it says on the tin, i.e, moving around the system, or reasonable sized bits of it. Having any reason to be in any particular place (sorry, "neighbourhood") such as work or school commitments, seems to be contrary to this concept. And, arguably, that is logical. Most people (i.e. those living away from canals) have to pay some sort of rent to live where they do, or alternatively they own the property they live in. One can easily argue as to why boaters should be any different if they need to be reasonably static for work, school or other reasons. So it's not unreasonable that you pay to moor in such circumstances. The alternative is that you cruise far and wide, with no fixed abode as it were. In my view, living on a boat should not entitle you to avoid paying for the privilege of staying where you want to if you need to be in one area.

 

It also looks like (following the recent case from the south west estuary) that Council Tax is payable for boats that stay in one place for more than a year. That's perfectly reasonable for residential boats on permanent moorings and in marinas, as they are local residents, and like householders, they should pay, and it's irrelevant whether or not they argue that they use the services. CCers who move around are not liable for Council Tax, and certainly will avoid it if they move regularly between Council areas. But is it ethical for CCers who move only short distances simply to avoid being caught by CRT, not to pay Council Tax, as they still use some of the services? Certainly, the present rules don't provide any way to charge Council Tax in such circumstances. Just a thought from a person who lives in a bricks and mortar property that can't be moved!

[Ex- Member]

Thanks for the helpful posts. It has cleared things up a little but it still worries me that I get a boat made to order and might end up stuck in a marina. It would be much easier if the areas were defined, perhaps I will wait until that happens. Our ideal would be to move a little every day as I am the only one who works. From the impression i'm getting 10 miles a fortnight should easily meet the criteria of 'neighbourhood' but because I have a permanent job the CRT may stop me? I am unaware of restrictions but looking at maps of the canals I like the idea of moving from bishops storford south through london and back up to tring at a slow rate which is I guess a lot more than the 50 miles initially stated and taking the speed of the route mentioned round bath, would take me over a year anyway!

 

You could wait years for that and then find that defined boundries would probably make little or no difference to general cruising anyway. If a few rules or possible Future boundry changes are that worrying for you to halt the project, then you'll never get a boat built anyway, things change constantly, by the time the boundries are defined, I can assure you there will be something else to worry about.

[dmr]

The real answer to your question is this:

The rules are unclear

The rules keep changing

The degree to which CaRT enforce the rules is unclear

The degree to which CaRT enforce the rules keeps changing

The degree to which the rules can legally be enforced is unclear

A lot of people on this forum like talking about these rules and some even believe that this uncertainty does not exist..

so:

There is no answer to your question and possibly never will be.

 

Some people get very upset about all this but on the other hand the lack of rigid rules can be one of the big attractions of canal life.

If you can travel 50 miles, keep your boat clean and tidy, don't boast about breaking the rules, and don't travel as part of a community, then you should be OK. But it is possible that at some time in the future you might have to get a mooring or travel even further. It is also possible that at some time in the future the canal system will become unnavigable and turned into a wildlife sanctuary and fishermans playground. If you want to do it then do it now whilst you can.

 

..............Dave

[Ex- Member]

Dundus? Calverton?

 

Where in the name of Swansea are you on about?

 

Claverton is on the A36 which runs parallel to the canal between Limply Stoke and Bathampton. There’s Calverton Wood which runs alongside the canal and Claverton Hill which takes you up to Bath university.

 

Dundus is the private canal The Bath & Dundus Canal. You access via Dundus Aqueduct, you must know it this it’s the high aqueduct that passes over the river Avon there’s a pumping station Elsan water disposal.

 

http://devizesdays.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/two-aqueducts-walk-through-limpley.html

 

ETA

 

Claverton also houses one of the canal pumping stations.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Claverton_Pumping_Station_Exterior.JPG

Edited May 12, 2013 by Julynian

[LoneWolf]

In spite of what I've written above, I do agree that CRT are moving towards the position that Continuous Cruiser means what it says on the tin, i.e, moving around the system, or reasonable sized bits of it.

....

 

Just what 'tin' are you referring to? The legislation certainly doesn't say that.

iirc you are referring to the old BW guidance which was binned post Davies

 

 

The real answer to your question is this:

The rules are unclear

The rules keep changing

The degree to which CaRT enforce the rules is unclear

The degree to which CaRT enforce the rules keeps changing

The degree to which the rules can legally be enforced is unclear

A lot of people on this forum like talking about these rules and some even believe that this uncertainty does not exist..

so:

There is no answer to your question and possibly never will be.

 

Some people get very upset about all this but on the other hand the lack of rigid rules can be one of the big attractions of canal life.

If you can travel 50 miles, keep your boat clean and tidy, don't boast about breaking the rules, and don't travel as part of a community, then you should be OK. But it is possible that at some time in the future you might have to get a mooring or travel even further. It is also possible that at some time in the future the canal system will become unnavigable and turned into a wildlife sanctuary and fishermans playground. If you want to do it then do it now whilst you can.

 

..............Dave

 

Well said.

The answer to how small a cruising range is acceptable can only be determined by the courts

 

CART can draw as many maps as they like and if they stick em in their guidance as an appendix all it means is that if yo keep within it they wont come after you. It doesn't mean a smaller cruising range isn't within the law

[luctor et emergo]

The real answer to your question is this:

The rules are unclear

The rules keep changing

The degree to which CaRT enforce the rules is unclear

The degree to which CaRT enforce the rules keeps changing

The degree to which the rules can legally be enforced is unclear

A lot of people on this forum like talking about these rules and some even believe that this uncertainty does not exist..

so:

There is no answer to your question and possibly never will be.

 

Some people get very upset about all this but on the other hand the lack of rigid rules can be one of the big attractions of canal life.

If you can travel 50 miles, keep your boat clean and tidy, don't boast about breaking the rules, and don't travel as part of a community, then you should be OK. But it is possible that at some time in the future you might have to get a mooring or travel even further. It is also possible that at some time in the future the canal system will become unnavigable and turned into a wildlife sanctuary and fishermans playground. If you want to do it then do it now whilst you can.

 

..............Dave

That last sentence is probably the best summary of the situation as it is now. Nobody knows what is going to happen in the next few years. So make the most of whilst you can.

 

 

Claverton is on the A36 which runs parallel to the canal between Limply Stoke and Bathampton. Theres Calverton Wood which runs alongside the canal and Claverton Hill which takes you up to Bath university.

 

Dundus is the private canal The Bath & Dundus Canal. You access via Dundus Aqueduct, you must know it this its the high aqueduct that passes over the river Avon theres a pumping station Elsan water disposal.

 

 

http://devizesdays.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/two-aqueducts-walk-through-limpley.html

 

ETA

 

Claverton also houses one of the canal pumping stations.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Claverton_Pumping_Station_Exterior.JPG

 

 

Claverton is on the A36 which runs parallel to the canal between Limply Stoke and Bathampton. Theres Calverton Wood which runs alongside the canal and Claverton Hill which takes you up to Bath university.

 

Dundus is the private canal The Bath & Dundus Canal. You access via Dundus Aqueduct, you must know it this its the high aqueduct that passes over the river Avon theres a pumping station Elsan water disposal.

 

 

http://devizesdays.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/two-aqueducts-walk-through-limpley.html

 

ETA

 

Claverton also houses one of the canal pumping stations.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Claverton_Pumping_Station_Exterior.JPG

Dundus?

 

Dundas. Dundas Aquaduct, because the aquaduct was named after Charles Dundas , the owner of the canal. The basin is called Brassknocker Basin.

 

As approached via Limpley Stoke.

 

Where you can't moor now, onaccount of the numerous falling trees...

[PhilR]

.

Edited May 13, 2013 by PhilR

[Ange]

The real answer to your question is this:

The rules are unclear

The rules keep changing

The degree to which CaRT enforce the rules is unclear

The degree to which CaRT enforce the rules keeps changing

The degree to which the rules can legally be enforced is unclear

A lot of people on this forum like talking about these rules and some even believe that this uncertainty does not exist..

so:

There is no answer to your question and possibly never will be.

 

Some people get very upset about all this but on the other hand the lack of rigid rules can be one of the big attractions of canal life.

If you can travel 50 miles, keep your boat clean and tidy, don't boast about breaking the rules, and don't travel as part of a community, then you should be OK. But it is possible that at some time in the future you might have to get a mooring or travel even further. It is also possible that at some time in the future the canal system will become unnavigable and turned into a wildlife sanctuary and fishermans playground. If you want to do it then do it now whilst you can.

 

..............Dave

Greenie from me. Nicely put.

[Ex- Member]

That last sentence is probably the best summary of the situation as it is now. Nobody knows what is going to happen in the next few years. So make the most of whilst you can.

 

 

 

 

Dundus?

 

Dundas. Dundas Aquaduct, because the aquaduct was named after Charles Dundas , the owner of the canal. The basin is called Brassknocker Basin.

 

As approached via Limpley Stoke.

 

Where you can't moor now, onaccount of the numerous falling trees...

 

Well I don't know where fallen trees are, but there was a pretty long stretch of canal where boats moored approaching Dundus from the Claverton stretch, this was 2006/7 though. You can still moor or could along the stretch of canal after traversing the aqueduct approaching Winsley hill Limplystoke, a good mile long I recall.

 

People call different places different things, My very first visited to Dundus aqueduct was on a school trip to see Dundus Aqueduct. So that's what I've always called it. I know it's called Brassknocker basin too and is also called Claverton aqueduct. There's also a Brassknocker hill which runs from the A36 to Claverton Down. Not sure what came first though Brassknocker Hill or basin.

[Maffi]

I am always suspicious of the type of question posed here. Mainly thats because I am a suspicious person. I would ask initially if the 'newbie' is maybe working for CRT and asking to get a consensus of opinion from which they can maybe form some rules that everyone can live by, bit far fetched I know.

 

And then at the other end of the spectrum I think a genuine Continuous Cruiser wouldn't need to ask this question.

 

So that leaves the other sorts of continuous, the Moorer and the Avoider. Both are bridge hoppers. That is a choice they make and I will not say they can't.

 

You simply cannot be a CCer on one canal. They whole point of being allowed to CC is to see the system. The SYSTEM is 2,000 miles long. I'm kinda guessing that it would be difficult to see those 2,000 miles by only travelling 50 of them. So I think the OP is not going to be a continuous cruiser. Agreed?

 

Now with regards moving, the OP mentioned 10 miles. I think this is a lot. When I am out and about I travel as long as it takes to give me a tank of hot water, fully charged batteries and a pub. Depending how fast you travel this can be done in an hour or so actually moving maybe 2 miles. If you move every 14 days in the same direction you will only be 52 miles away from where you first started a year later. 52 miles is NOT an unreasonable distance to travel to work for what will be a relatively short period of time (I once worked for three years driving 90 miles each way to work). Then next year when you renew your licence you can about face and go back. Although this is not strictly following the rules you will probably get away with it. You will of course be an Avoider preferring to stay relatively close to work but not wanting to get a ticket! Travelling 20/25 miles in each direction is what we call here bridge hopping. On the GU they may call that something else.

 

Remember of course that working and children at school are not good reasons under the CC 'rules' to stay in one area. At the end of the day we all do what we can get away with.

 

If you can avoid being a CCer the rules are different. Of course if you have a marina mooring the CC rules don't apply to you. You dont have to stay in the marina but it would make a useful base during the winter when towpaths are often very muddy and driving snow puts you off moving. During the summertime you can travel as much or as little as you like and they can't stop you providing you don't hog the visitor moorings.

 

Enjoy!

[Bartleby Scrivener]

Wow. Just wow.

Thanks Dave for your sensible answer to what I asked. I understand a lot better now. I think I will be fine, there is a few hundred miles of canal I can travel along so I don't think there will be a problem other than with the neighbours it seems. Do the canals make everyone crazy?