The Oil Engine Co, Welshpool.

[Athy]

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Our boat will be 58ft-62ft, we want to maximize internal cabin space so I'm thinking that a taller slimmer engine, 1 or 2 cylinder would be good for no better reason than to save space, but I don't really know yet if there is anything that would be suitable. Visible moving bits and a nice 'put put put' noise is the dream engine, a bit nieve I know but you have to start somewhere don't you?

 

I know your a Gardner fan so any sugestions as to suitable engines would be most welcome.

For that size of boat, our previous engines (Petter PH2, Rigas Dizelis PM24) would be rather too small. There is an as-new Lister SR2 for sale by a forum member at the moment, but again this would be underpowered for a boat of the size which you are contemplating. You are right about the "tall thin" approach - the majority of older engines in narrowboats are twin-cylinder, as bigger engines tend to be under-used and (I'm told) thereby less efficient.

Gardner's 2L2, an earlier model than the LW, is fairly slim and fairly tall, but I think that parts availability may be a problem nowadays. The LW, a "modern" engine (introduced in 1931!) is not quite as tall. They were built until 1973 and revived in the 1990s (I think the last one was actually produced at the dawn of the 21st century) so parts are still plentiful.

Our engine room is five feet long, which is sufficient for access for anybody working on it (which, as a non-technical bod, isn't going to be me). We get a bit of the length back by having a transverse bed, which occupies 4'6" of the boat's length rather than the 6'3" or so occupied by a longitudinal bed. A completely rebuilt 2LW, with gearbox, will now cost you about £14,000 from Walsh's Engineering. Advantages: very reliable, plenty of low-end power, quite compact, fairly economical on fuel, emits pleasing noises, does not seem to use any oil, never (fingers crossed) breaks down - at least, ours has not in seven years, though when new and tight it did blow a starter motor. Disadvantage: it's grey.

And finally: to say that a 2LW goes "put put" is like suggesting that a bass guitar goes "plunk". There's much more depth and syncopation to the sound than that! But as I said, I'm biased.

[rjasmith]

Typical of us Brits. We zealously apply all the rules when no one else does. Clearly the renewal of the derogation would be the best option as it makes life easier for everyone. Perhaps we should all write to our MPs and MEPs and get the status quo maintained. I have been told that the Dutch have an exemption for domestically produced vintage engines, such as the old semi diesel Kromhouts, under the "national heritage" catch all banner.

 

Where it is clearly nonsense is when the eco warriors are emptying barns of the old Listers and using them for power generation. No rules there then!

 

I wonder if the Dutch are actually making use of the same "rule" or interpretation of the present form of the RCD that Michael Clarke obtained back in 2003. It isn't a "derogation" as I understand it, ie only applicable to the UK rather like the red diesel thing was but an EU wide concession that applies in any member state.

 

What may change in the future is when the new 2013 RCD amendment comes out and if Michael's current lobbying to keep the 2003 concession going doesn't succeed.

 

Then all the EU (Dutch included) could have a problem continuing to fit a vintage engine in a new boat and being able to sell it legally unless the owner is prepared to take it on as a part complete boat and keep it for 5 years.

 

Hopefully the Dutch and all other member states that have a famous tradition of vintage engines are doing their own lobbying. If we all had a go at this the problem might go away!

 

Richard

[steamraiser2]

One thing about "the problem" which no one seems to pick up on is that no one is policing it outside of the UK. One of the most upmarket traditional builders in Holland approached us for a Kromhout LW recently. Not interested in the "rule" in any way. If the client wants a new engine he gets a CE compliant one ,if he wants a vintage one he gets it, new build or not. The Dutch are probably not lobbying anyone, they don't seem to need to.

 

As said earlier if a client supplies his own engine and that engine has provenance within the EU its not a problem.

Edited June 4, 2013 by steamraiser2

[rjasmith]

One thing about "the problem" which no one seems to pick up on is that no one is policing it outside of the UK. One of the most upmarket traditional builders in Holland approached us for a Kromhout LW recently. Not interested in the "rule" in any way. If the client wants a new engine he gets a CE compliant one ,if he wants a vintage one he gets it, new build or not. The Dutch are probably not lobbying anyone, they don't seem to need to.

 

As said earlier if a client supplies his own engine and that engine has provenance within the EU its not a problem.

 

Yes - I think what you're describing is how things stand now. I believe the Dutch are acting entirely correctly under the present version of the RCD ie the 2003 version. Under a thing called the "emissions matrix" it's perfectly OK to install a pre 2005 engine in a new boat at the moment, anywhere in the EU.

 

The 2003 version of the RCD will remain in place for a few years yet but when the new amendment is approved (some time this year I believe) and then brought into operation a few years later, my understanding is that the situation will change unless some lobbying is done to try to alter the way it is being put together. The "emissions matrix" might well get written out this time.

 

As you are someone who is involved with the supply of vintage engines who must want to continue supplying them to install in new build boats in the future might it be worth checking with someone like Michael Clarke in Belgium about all this?

 

I will ask Michael to look at this thread to see what he thinks!

 

Richard

[rjasmith]

OK - Panic over folks!!

 

It seems the new RCD amendment discussions in Brussels have moved on from where they were six months ago when I last consulted Michael Clarke.

 

I PM'd Ally (of Beacon Boats and a CWDF member as most will know) and she has just asked their RCD consultant/surveyor. He has confirmed that the 2003 amendment that Michael originally lobbied for when engine emissions were first brought in to the RCD WILL be kept in the new version after all.

 

This means that an engine that was first placed on the EU market prior to Jan 2006 (I got the year wrong in my earlier post) can still be declared exempt from the RCD emissions requirements and can be installed in a new build boat , after the new RCD comes into force 2 years after it is approved (some time this year I think).

 

The resulting new boat, if compliant with all other aspects of the RCD can then be sold by the builder legally. This, of course will be true across all of the EU, not just for the UK.

 

Richard

[NB Alnwick]

Has anyone examined the emissions from a Kelvin 'K' series with the Ricardo spherical combustion chambers? Although designed in the 1920s, exhaust emissions are negligible.

Well - they are on our engine . . .

[rjasmith]

Has anyone examined the emissions from a Kelvin 'K' series with the Ricardo spherical combustion chambers? Although designed in the 1920s, exhaust emissions are negligible.

Well - they are on our engine . . .

 

Are you sure Graham?

 

If Kelvins were new engines, to meet todays RCD they would have to meet the following:-

 

CO less than 5.0g/kWh

Hydrocarbons less than 1.5 + 2.0/P_N^0.5 g/kWh (where P_N is the rated engine power in kW)

NOx less than 9.8g/kWh

Particulates less than 1.0g/kWh

 

Testing has to be done in accordance with an ISO std. that is referred to somewhere else but I couldn't be bothered to look!

 

(Above lifted from my copy of the 2003 version of the RCD).

 

I have a copy of the proposed draft new RCD (as it was 6 months back and I now accept it may have moved on!) but the same table for emissions is now so complicated it would take me all night to type here!

 

Needless to say they look much tighter!

 

From today's revelation by Ally, thankfully, if the engine going in to a new boat was built and first sold in the EU before Jan 2006, none of this matters!

 

Richard

 

PS I hope the OP (pebble) has been able to contact Kevin Whittle in his Oil Engine Co in Welshpool by now and my apologies to him for taking this rather a long way

Edited June 5, 2013 by rjasmith

[pebble]

I did contact Mr Whittle who was very helpful. Regarding going 'off topic'...it's all facinating stuff to learners like us!