Solid fuel stoves

[Gary Peacock]

For those interested in the future of solid fuel stoves and boats (Especially narrow ones!) this is the latest-

 

 

Subject: REMINDER - Solid Fuel Stoves Standards Meeting 25th February

 

DON'T MOAN

 

Fact - A new British Standard for Solid Fuel Stoves will be published

soon.

 

Fact - This Standard will change the way you can install stoves.

 

Fact - You probably won't like parts of it.

 

Fact - You can have your say as to how you would like this standard to

be at a meeting THIS WEEK in Rugby.

 

If you don't have your say, then Don't Moan afterwards.

 

 

Meeting Details:

 

Subject: British Standard: Code of practice for the installation of

solid fuel heating and cooking appliances in recreational craft

Date: 25th February 2009

Time: 1pm to 5 PM

Location: The Golden Lion, Easenhall, (CV23 0JA) [near Rugby]

( http://www.goldenlionhotel.org )

Cost: expected to be £10 (This will not be charged by CBA but by the

organisers)

 

 

The Chairman of the YDSA (surveyors) Inland Waterways Group and along

with CBA Committee members are organising a forum to discuss the code of

practice being drawn up which covers the installation of solid fuel

cooking and heating appliances in boats. This is obviously particularly

relevant to inland waterways craft and is expected to become a full

blown British Standard before being considered for ISO status.

 

There are some issues within the code. Some seem to be a logical

approach, whereas other areas may cause many of our clients and BMF

members some problems - with some possibly unworkable. The document is

going out for public consultation and the aim of the session is to do

promote an awareness of the codes contents and generate feedback for a

consultation submission.

 

The session is being run at a very low cost to cover room hire and

teas/coffees, with the split of costs expected to be in the region of

£10 per delegate.

 

 

What you need to do next:

A) If you wish to attend please email me your name and contact details

If you are unable to attend but have a query of concern please email

it to me with your contact details so Michael is able to keep you

informed

 

If you have already replied you don't need to do so again and apologies

for the reminder, if you have not yet responded and you are inviolved

with the fitting / supplying of Solid Fuel Stoves you should attend.

 

Kind regards

 

Sam

CBA

 

On Behalf of Michael Carter

www.ydsa.co.uk

 

- ----------------------------------------------------

British Marine Federation. A company limited by guarantee. Registered in

England Number 2592536

National Boat Shows Ltd. Registered in England Number 556861

Southampton International Boat Show Ltd . Registered in England Number

1247541

National Boat Shows Ltd and Southampton International Boat Show Ltd are

wholly owned subsidiaries of the British Marine Federation.

 

All three companies are registered at: Marine House, Thorpe Lea Road,

Egham, Surrey, TW20 8BF

Edited February 23, 2009 by Gary Peacock

[Rick-n-Jo]

Good to know that nanny is alive and kicking

[Gary Peacock]

Good to know that nanny is alive and kicking

 

Problem is that boaters and boatbuilders brought this on themselves, if there weren't so many badly installed stoves there wouldn't have been the incidents that attracted the attention.

 

A number of boatbuilders installations have proved to be very suspect where cost saving rather than safety were the driving factor.

[alan_fincher]

A number of boatbuilders installations have proved to be very suspect where cost saving rather than safety were the driving factor.

Possibly an understatement, from what I can gather.

 

As people appear to have died because of poor installations, it seems perhaps wrong to complain if that provokes greater regulation.

[Bones]

oh goody, 2 days notice and then when we are all working. Thats what I like - something where we have time to comment or hear the voice.

 

long live democracy

[NB Alnwick]

Well I can make time to go and its reasonably local - anyone else?

[Bob the welder]

oh goody, 2 days notice and then when we are all working. Thats what I like - something where we have time to comment or hear the voice.

 

long live democracy

thats why they did it 2 days plenty .BOB.

[Bagpuss]

Is there a draft document anywhere we could peruse?

[Guest steve jenkin]

the police are worried about riots of discontent this summer, is coming close to organising one for the waterways i think. we are not all stupid, we live on our boats and most of us do not wish to die from crap installations. However, when will one of these [word removed] consider advising us to the perils, rather than bring a paper out that forces us and generates income for the nanny state at the same time. i heard that this is one of the safest countries in the world, is it any wonder, we cant afford to go out !!! anyone know where i can get a couple of mortar tubes to install on my boat? its time to repel borders !!

Edited February 24, 2009 by Liam

[sociable_hermit]

The meeting isn't being run at "low cost" as far as I'm concerned, not if you factor in the loss of my wages for a day

 

The fact that there is a charge at all seems designed to drive away the continuous cruisers

 

Having the gall to suggest that we must all be somehow lazy or disinterested if we don't attend is taking the mickey, given that it's mid-week and we've had two days notice. Looks like the normal attempt to justify the decisions made by the one or two people who will attend on the basis that "Well, we DID ask everybody, but no-one turned up...".

[kayak]

Is there anywhere that points to the rules on stove already? A little off topic but the log burner in my fit out will be integral to the plumbing layout of my boat and i want to get it RDC'd.

Also, if new rules were brought in, how long would it be before they were enforced?

 

Kayak.

[BlueStringPudding]

Also, if new rules were brought in, how long would it be before they were enforced?

 

My thoughts exactly. As we've been toying with the idea of installing a second stove for some time, I'm wondering whether we should get cracking with it pronto!

 

Also is the intention to make some of the rules retrospective, I wonder - to dissect the installation of previously installed stoves...? Surely that's for the BSC to do?

[Gary Peacock]

The sarcasm here is really intended at the lack of interest from the parties that the "powers that be" consider should be consulted, namely those involved in the manafacture, sales and installation of stoves.

 

The general public other than through representaion from recognised associations etc probably are not considered to have any say in the outcome.

 

I have to say this isn't some kind of state secret! I have mentioned what was going on numerous times in the past.

 

The traggic event of the Lindy Lou along with others probably increased the urgency in the eyes of those concerned with safety for a quantifiable standard to appropriate responcibility via.

 

If the standard becomes harmonised to the RCD then it would become law with reguards to production boats (This normally is not a quick process), the BSS not having any legal powers or duties would be free to proceed however they choose.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

oh goody, 2 days notice and then when we are all working. Thats what I like - something where we have time to comment or hear the voice.

 

long live democracy

 

 

Hi all,

 

(Bones, Gary's posting refers to a BMF i.e. marine trade meeting to give a heads up as far as I can work out)

 

So, no public document or consultation as yet, but there will be shortly so I am told. The BSS in the form of my manager is on the working group and we strove successfully to place a user groups representative also on the working group - following comments posted here.

 

I have not seen and I have no access to the draft document until it goes public.

 

Is it underwhelming, common sense or over onerous? To answer this perhaps it is best to wait and see the draft proposals (I'm as eager to see these as everyone else here).

 

As I understand it the code will address these main areas

• specification of the stove
  
• installation of the stove
  
• installation and specification of the chimney or flue-pipe
  
• supply of user instructions and maintenance information
  

But I may be mistaken or incomplete on this!

 

I am told it will cover steel, wood and FRP/GRP constructed boats. I understand it will cover charcoal burners, but not oil-fired appliances

 

When the draft is published I would urge people to read the it very carefully and take stock. It is possible that either the marine trade, or let us not forget them, the solid fuel industries may take/make their own opinions, but are either of these in the interest of the boat owner from safety, convenience or financial perspective. Ask yourself why each code standard has been included.

 

For example, twin walled flue-pipe. I'm trying to fit a stove in a single story room in my home. Twin wall is three times the cost (50/150 pm run), but using it throughout will allow me to have a shorter pipe run and fewer joints and brackets. It will also be safer inside (touch), provide more efficient combustion (avoid CO/better use of fuel), less likely to have a chimney fire (less tar), it won't discolour and being shorter, it won't look as unsightly from the outside.

 

Hypothetically speaking, a boat builder may feel the extra cost of twin wall will affect its ability to sell such products or profitability for little or no gain to safety or convenience. This is why the proposals must be appreciated from your perspective/interest and the pros and cons carefully considered avoiding knee-jerk reactions.

 

I thought it would help, so I have also been sending as much information as I could find from forums such as this and from incident data to the user groups representative.

 

There will be opportunity to comment but when and how, I'm not sure and this is the sole responsibility of the British Standards Institution.

 

Will the BSS adopt some/any of the suggested standards in the final Code of Practice? That will be for the BSS committee members and the navigation authorities and not the BSS Office team to decide? And any decision I'm sure will not be taken until the final version is published.

 

Will it affect the RCD, only if the code becomes an ISO, so possibly and possibly not?

 

In my personal opinion however, having a published code will at least help in one area, we will all be able to take the information rather than swim around in a mire of supposition and guesswork, which lets face it, is all that has been on offer to date.

 

I hope this helps, despite it being a counsel of wait and see - the wait will not be too long so I am told.

 

Regards

Rob

[Speedwheel]

I'm going to be there. (and getting paid to do so!)

[NB Alnwick]

I'm going to be there. (and getting paid to do so!)

 

In view of Rob's comments above, (and as I am now 'retired') I will not now try to go. Hopefully, there will be later oportunities for consumers to express opinions.

[Gary Peacock]

Draft copy of BS 8511, Code of practice for the installation of solid fuel fired heating and cooking appliances in recreational craft

 

http://drafts.bsigroup.com/?i=283

 

You will need to register to view it. (It's free)

[Machpoint005]

This is going to be a dissenting voice of reason, so I'm getting ready to duck.

 

We recently had a solid fuel stove installed at home, in an existing chimney. In order to comply with the multiplicity of regulations we had a registered installer carry out the work. This included a very expensive (and long, ie high) stainless steel flue liner. I have no complaints whatsoever about this, and was happy to pay the market rate to have the job done properly and safely. I have no wish to poison or asphyxiate my family.

 

Now I do not know for certain if the stove installation on my boat complies with existing or future regulations. I do know how to use it, though (if in doubt read the instructions) and judging by the fact that my CO and smoke alarms have remained silent, I suspect the stove may well be working properly. If it proves in the future not to be compliant with a relevant regulation, I will happily pay for the increased safety margin that would result from making it compliant.

 

I may be prepared to gamble with my own life (I say, may be prepared...) but the lives of my family and friends are not mine to gamble with.

 

If there's a right way and a wrong way - do it the right way.

If there's a right way and a better way - do it the better way. I don't care if it is a 'nanny state' if I'm being recommended to do exactly what I want to do anyway.

 

Parallel case: I don't object to seat belts being compulsory when I'm driving, or a car passenger, as I use them anyway.

[NB Alnwick]

Draft copy of BS 8511, Code of practice for the installation of solid fuel fired heating and cooking appliances in recreational craft

 

http://drafts.bsigroup.com/?i=283

 

You will need to register to view it. (It's free)

 

Makes interesting reading! The requirement to have 'factory made insulated chimeys' and avoiding 'a location near to a stepped entrance' will raise a few eyebrows. Also there appears to have been no consideration given to traditional back cabin arrangements - are we to assume that these installations have, after more than a hundred years of service, been deemed unsafe?

[Gary Peacock]

The full document in pdf form is HERE for you to download.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Gary Peacock

[MoominPapa]

Makes interesting reading! The requirement to have 'factory made insulated chimeys' and avoiding 'a location near to a stepped entrance' will raise a few eyebrows. Also there appears to have been no consideration given to traditional back cabin arrangements - are we to assume that these installations have, after more than a hundred years of service, been deemed unsafe?

"Must be fitted be a competent person" is a hostage to fortune too: it too easily becomes "Must be fitted by member of cartel".

 

Is an insulated flue appropriate? Most boat installations have a flue which doesn't touch any part of the boat from the stove outlet to the roof penetration and certainly on ours, a significant proportion of the heat exchange with the air takes place via the flue.

 

The diagrams for roof penetrations are eyebrow-raising. Anyone for flashing on a narrowboat roof?

 

MP.

[sociable_hermit]

I don't like terminology like that: it's an opportunity for someone to establish a certification regime to establish 'competence'. My stove (inc. back boiler) was installed by a highly competent chap called Mark in exchange for several cups of tea and a biscuit or two. He didn't have any certificates, but he did a great job. Formal assessment would most likely stop useful people like Mark from doing stuff they're really good at

[alan_fincher]

"Must be fitted be a competent person" is a hostage to fortune too: it too easily becomes "Must be fitted by member of cartel".

 

Is an insulated flue appropriate? Most boat installations have a flue which doesn't touch any part of the boat from the stove outlet to the roof penetration and certainly on ours, a significant proportion of the heat exchange with the air takes place via the flue.

 

The diagrams for roof penetrations are eyebrow-raising. Anyone for flashing on a narrowboat roof?

 

MP.

I agree with all of those.

 

We all keep out solid fuel more than 600mm away from any part of the stove, don't we ?

 

And all our external chimneys are at least 600 mm long, (on the "shorter" "uphill" side ) ? Even when moving ??

 

However, I do like the idea that any external chimney over 1.5 metres high needs guy wire supports. I thought they were TV masts, not chimneys.

[Phoenix_V]

This is going to be a dissenting voice of reason, so I'm getting ready to duck.

 

We recently had a solid fuel stove installed at home, in an existing chimney. In order to comply with the multiplicity of regulations we had a registered installer carry out the work. This included a very expensive (and long, ie high) stainless steel flue liner. I have no complaints whatsoever about this, and was happy to pay the market rate to have the job done properly and safely. I have no wish to poison or asphyxiate my family.

 

Now I do not know for certain if the stove installation on my boat complies with existing or future regulations. I do know how to use it, though (if in doubt read the instructions) and judging by the fact that my CO and smoke alarms have remained silent, I suspect the stove may well be working properly. If it proves in the future not to be compliant with a relevant regulation, I will happily pay for the increased safety margin that would result from making it compliant.

 

I may be prepared to gamble with my own life (I say, may be prepared...) but the lives of my family and friends are not mine to gamble with.

 

If there's a right way and a wrong way - do it the right way.

If there's a right way and a better way - do it the better way. I don't care if it is a 'nanny state' if I'm being recommended to do exactly what I want to do anyway.

 

Parallel case: I don't object to seat belts being compulsory when I'm driving, or a car passenger, as I use them anyway.

 

That may be true, but I wish I could be sure that there isnt the hidden hand of vested self interest in some of this, I am all for doing things safely but it must be questioned whether chimneys have to be "factory made" and installation by competent people sounds reasonable until they tel us that you have to pay £2000 or more to gain the equivalent of a CORGI certificate to be thought competent. This stinks of jobs for the boys.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

"Must be fitted be a competent person" is a hostage to fortune too: it too easily becomes "Must be fitted by member of cartel".

 

Is an insulated flue appropriate? Most boat installations have a flue which doesn't touch any part of the boat from the stove outlet to the roof penetration and certainly on ours, a significant proportion of the heat exchange with the air takes place via the flue.

 

The diagrams for roof penetrations are eyebrow-raising. Anyone for flashing on a narrowboat roof?

 

MP.

 

Gary's beaten me to the draw. I was sent a copy at 9.30 this morning.

 

As I understand it, the flue pipe can be single skin from around 150mm below the cabin roof. Double at roof level for fire protection and double skin above to improve chimney effectiveness and thus combustion efficiency, so the reasoning from the drafting consultants flows. Most the heat loss being at the terminal ie in open air, and that is where many of the problems start for tarring and other potential flue blocking and back pressure woes - again this is what I have understood but I do not claim expertise.

 

'Competency' is an interesting debate, especially as there is no competency scheme currently for boats, houses yes, but not boats. On one hand a cartel is one perceived risk (although there are legal protections against cartels) on the other side of the coin, there is the risk of not being able to identify confidently, a 'skilled, experienced and informed' fitter with whom you would entrust your safety to install a stove in ones boat. Where's the balance, what's the greater risk; what's the greater benefit and what are the shades in between - are probably the questions to be weighed up. It's probably best to ask questions about costs of gaining competency rather than make assumptions based on other trades.

 

You can make comments to BSi directly through its website or you may find that if you are a member of a boat user group, that it will be making a submission to the BSi. We have alerted AWCC, IWA, NABO, RBOA, RYA and The Boating Association which are all represented on our committees.

 

Regards

Rob

 

 

 

 

That may be true, but I wish I could be sure that there isnt the hidden hand of vested self interest in some of this, I am all for doing things safely but it must be questioned whether chimneys have to be "factory made" ....

 

I think 'proprietary' would have been a better description rather than 'factory'. Its to describe a 'safe' installation as opposed to the old drainpipe complete with 2x90 degree bends we have seen on one flue last year or the plastic vacuum cleaner nozzle we found on a fridge flue recently.

 

Rob